Official Luthiers Forum!

I finished off the braces tonight (I think) and would be grateful for any observations. I altered the rough braces as a result of the last suggestions and have now glued and shaped them. The top now weighs 239 grams, if that means anything.









Thanks again for your kind help! Especially to John Hall who took the time to make contact by phone and offer some great advice!

Shane

_________________
Canada

Shane,

Looks really good!! I don't really know about top weight - depends on the guitar design and piece of wood you are working with, but I have one in the workshop that had to come off for a re-top and it weighs 245g so I think it will be great. And as it's your wonderful Lutz it will be sublime I'm sure.

What I do now - and it is probably hocus pocus - is tap all the way along each brace on the top, listening to how the top sound changes. I'm not tuning to any fixed note or anything, but am aiming to hear the top ringing and sustaining everywhere, and in particular listening to find points where the sound changes and loses ring/sustain. Usually these are places where the brace shape changes more suddenly and I do some fine snading/shaving until the ring/sustain returns.

Probably as I say hocus pocus, but I find I can spend an incredibly relaxing hour or do doing this. I showed this technique to Russell when he visited so maybe he can comment.

I'd be interested to know how the top's sound changes as you tap along the bottom legs of the X braces coming along the bottom of the scallops to the peak. I'm not a huge fan of "hump and bump" brace shapes and prefer the more gentle and gradual taper commonly known as "parabolic" (that reference is just to annoy Howard )Dave White38722.1870833333

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Shane your workmanship is impeccabe. Very clean neat and very well executated.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Hi Shane

I like the bracing, it has nice gradual drops, which should give a very even tone, I am intrigued by the rear tone bars going straight across its not a design I have tried as I tend to use the rear tonebars to manipulate the sound, I will be very interested to hear the result.

Daves method of taping, makes perfect sense to me he looks for a response from the braces with dead spots. I am just experimenting with the method so will let you know the results. At the end of the day if you hear one of Dave's guitars they light up the room with a strong sound and beautiful tone, so I think his method works.

As Bob said the workmanship is beautiful, I Like the bridge plate size, should provide plenty of "drive".

Hi Shane,

Your bracing is very neat, your approach seems flawless at this point, when she's done, i'll give you a call just to hear it over the phone!

Serge

That long chisel seems to serve you good

Those two X braces look a lot like mine. Very slight sculpting vertically and a lot of sculpting from the sides making the brace thin and tall. That makes the most sense to me. The lightest possible brace to carry the load would have those features. Flexability near the perimeter of the top where it belongs, stiffness in the center to keep the trebles sparkling.   Looks good to me.

John

Shane, that's clean enough to be Lance's guitar.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

   Looks great! Very well done. I especially like that paring chisel. What a beauty! Lee Valley?

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Looking good, I too am no great fan of pointy scalloping, prefering 'parabolic' shapes. Like Dave, I started tapping along each brace looking for dead points and shaving down where I found them. By the time I had finished all the scallops were gone and nice smooth flowing 'organic' braces remained, kind of like yours. Get's the whole top working.

Excellent workmanship.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

My pattern and general brace shape looks a lot like that - but the bottom of the X has no peak - its a gentle taper from about an inch or so behind the x crossing down to about 2mm thick at the lining. The brace directly behind the bridge plate is about 1/2 inch high, scalloped ends down to about 3mm. The rear ladder brace tapers as well, from about 1/2 inch high onthe centre to the 2mm at the linings - its a little looser feel than what you will get with you current shapes here. The sound is generally big and open, no boom, even.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

awesome job shane. Looks like a Larrivee bracing. As for weight..that is right around the range I get..maybe a bit heavier... A top I braced yesterday and glued to the rim after all the voicing was done and it was ready to glue on the rim it weighed 225 grams. Top was about .110 - .120 thick...Adirondack spruce.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Thanks again for all of the comments, kind words and encouragement.

Dave, Russel and Colin, How you guys describe tap tuning is just like what Siminoff describes in his book, 'A Luthiers Handbook', looking for a constant note down the legs of the cross and across all braces. I did tap along and, as my ear is not trained for this yet, am unsure of what I am really looking for. I will though tap a bunch more tonight and shave a bit here and there and see what happens.

John, it certainly is a Larrivee design, most of the detail though came from an article Grit Laskin wrote in FWW in the '80's and from a brace picture I got off Linda Manzer's website (both apprenticed with Larrivee in the early '70's) and last from a Larrivee brochure. Sounds odd considereing all of the books on guitar making I have but I really like the sound of good Larrivee's so wanted to see what I could get with this pattern and those were were the best references for the pattern I could find...except maybe if I took Tony Karol's class! . 225 grams! I don't know if I could get that low. I had the cross shaped and added the rough braces and it weighed 252 grams. So I lost 13 grams shaping this much. The top is about .115 right now and will be a bit thinner when I finish sanding the face but even then, I don't know! But thanks for the reference.

Tony, thanks for the pattern specific advice. I will trim the bottom ladder down a bit and consider the cross brace in conjunction with Dave's suggestion of an even pitch along the brace, maybe the small scallop has to go. Actually, I think my lower ladder brace started at 3/8 or maybe 7/16 so it might already be close to yours, although I think that they finish more at 3mm.

Thanks again for the comments!

Shane

_________________
Canada

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer]
Dave, Russel and Colin, How you guys describe tap tuning is just like what Siminoff describes in his book, 'A Luthiers Handbook', looking for a constant note down the legs of the cross and across all braces. [/QUOTE]


Shane,

Not quite. I'm not looking for a constant note or trying to tune the top to a set note as Simonoff seems to infer in his book. What I am listening for is that the top keeps ringing and sustaining everywhere I am tapping with no dead or very quiet spots. The actual note will change as you move around. Just hold the top loosely at the opposite corner and lightly tap the brace with your finger abd your ear close to the top to hear the ring. Also at the end, hit the top where the saddle will be and you should get a nice loud "pop" and ring. The "pop" is more apparent when the box is joined.

I don't think there is a lot, if anything, to be gained in concentrating on one note unless that's the only note you plan to play on the guitar

Alan C may have more to on this say but most of the specific note tuning comes when you try and get the top and back to work better as a unit. Alan has posted lots of times on this one.

When you do the sanding of the top with the box joined, if it were me I would be concentrating on the lower bout at the edges and behind the bridge towards the tailblock. IMHO you need some thickness in the centre for balanced/strong mids and trebles, and personally I like the centre to be nearer 0.12" to 0.125".

Your guitar will sound great I'm sure.Dave White38722.5070601852

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Hi Alain,

Yup that is Sorby paring chisel from Lee Valley, I have all four of them. I have not heard really great things about them (after I bought them!) but I really like the feel and they seem to be holding an edge just fine, although it is just spruce! But they are joy to use. For these braces I have been using that small Ibex plane (the largest that Lee Valley sells but one size smaller than the one Stew Mac sells) then finishing off with the chisel and sandpaper. Excluding the cross I prabably got them all to this shape in one or two hours, I loose track of time when I am having fun! I lay low tack masking tape along each side of the brace I am carving to protect the top, remove the tape carefully though because even the low tack stuff on bare wood will pull some grain lines.

Shane

_________________
Canada

Well there are some differences in my 225 compared to yours. I don't use a tounge depressor brace as I utilize a different system. Aslo your lower face braces are heavier than mine, as well as your transverse looks larger than mine. But really not much of a difference in weight. I think you'll have a mighty fine sounding guitar on your hands.

Looks great again. I've always enjoyed Larrivees a well so I'm sure it will be a winner.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Hi Dave,

when your taping, are you using the flesh of the finger, or the fingernail to test resonance?

[QUOTE=Jalapeno] Hi Dave,

when your taping, are you using the flesh of the finger, or the fingernail to test resonance?[/QUOTE]

Jalapeno,

Just the flesh of my index fingertip.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Shane/John

What is the theory behind havind the brace at the rear straight across ?

Dave,

Thanks for this. I now have a new sense of vigar!! Man, my wife will be mad at you as I by-pass her tonight and head right the top to start 'tuning' things up! I agree with you about Siminoff's concentration of 'a note'. Having said that though he MAY make a good point when saying that if the coupled box resonates at a certain freqency that that specific note might be louder (wolf?) than all others. I have no experience in this but it sounds reasonable. I sell wood to him so I will ask him about that when next I talk to him. Again though, tuning to a 'secondary' note (poor term me thinks but oh well) sounds like an issue to address when fine tuning the finished box???!!?

I am going to ensure that I have that great ring along all of the braces! I had also planned to leave the middle of the plate a little thick (I think it is about .120 there now (but will be a bit thinner when I finish sand, should be OK with these stiff Lutz Tops though, shameful plug! ) and then to thin the outer edges, I will include the area below the bridge for a bit more 'elbow grease' as well.

I have to say that it sure is great building with all you guys! It takes a bunch of the guessing out of the process and increases the opportunity for a satisfactory result.

I really do appreciate it!

ShaneShane Neifer38723.5153587963

_________________
Canada

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] Dave,

Thanks for this. I now have a new sense of vigar!! Man, my wife will be mad at you as I by-pass her tonight and head right the top to start 'tuning' things up! [/QUOTE]

Shane,

Life is all about balance, so why don't you give your wife some "tuning" attention too. Making beatiful music together doesn't just apply to guitars

Go slow with the guitar top brace sanding/shaving and do little bits at a time. Sometimes very little change to the shape is required. You can always take it off, but it's harder to put it back on again!!Dave White38722.5728125

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

The rear brace - well Larrivee's thoughts were that if you want an even sounding guitar (as opposed to a more bass heavy dreadnaught) make the bracing symmetrical. He has never to my knowledge done it any other way. He did for a while have something that looked like the pattern (in another thread with 5 I think) with three little fans behind the bridge brace - the tops rippled on him, so he stopped and went back to the single ladder back there.

I suppose I could ask the same question as to why the braces on a Martin style go at an angle - my guess is that it makes the top stiffer under the treble side of the bridge, and looser on the bass side. The bracing here is simply stiffer in the middle of the top, looser at the edges - like a speaker cone. At least thats my take on it.

Howard mentioned earlier up that he doesnt see how this bracing would work - in what way I ask wont it work - no matter how you brace a guitar, it will still be a guitar, sound pretty much like a guitar, maybe just different than other guitars. Angle the brace, dont angle it, put one two or three in there, double X it, change the height, width, shaping, whatever - it will still sound like a guitar, maybe just not as responsive or even as other guitars.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

My wife is actually pretty GREAT. We have a lunch date planned in about 45 minutes. We were re-habbing a little Saw-Whet Owl for the past few days and it went bad last night and we lost him. That eats at both of us, he was a cute little fella with a very bad broken wing.

Anyway.....thanks again for your most appreciated thoughtful and clear advice.

Shane

_________________
Canada

Those are my thoughts also. But I think, not absolutely sure, but I think that Larrivee is doing some 'Martin' bracing on some of his Blue Grass Guitars now. I do like the double cross also though. I may have to do a run of three one year and use these different brace patterns and see what the sound differences are..in general.

Thanks Tony, any chance of a quick look at one of your braced tops? You hide them from your website...I looked!

Shane

_________________
Canada

Impeccable work Shane, you should be proud. I'm about to start a top with that great Lutz Spruce. Man that stuff is strong. I tried just bending it a little along the grain where it spaces out just a little, and I could barely move it. And the sound is tremendous. Can't wait to start.
Again, very, very nice work.