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| Hide Glue Question http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=4540 |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:46 am ] |
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OK so I'm taking the plunge, "hiding" the other glues and making out with the hhg. Does it require longer clamping times than Titebond etc, and in particular, how long would you leave say an X brace under go bar pressure with hhg? By the way - I'm also using the "tenting" method for joining tops and backs for the first time - fantastic 
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:04 am ] |
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Thank God someone started a new thread. We were really turning that "white Titebond glue" thread in to a mess. Dave it actually requires much less clamping time than PVA's. If you are not gluing under any stresses, even a rub joint with no claps is possible. If you pull the clamps after 30 minutes it's not going anywhere. Actually 5 min is probably fine, but I'm not usually in that much of a hurry. As with all glues, even if it dries in an hour you should still wait at least overnight before putting it under stress. 75% of the curing may occur in the first few hours, but it typically takes 12-24 for it to reach full strength. By the way, I'm not familiar with the use of the word "tenting". Are you referring to the shape the top is joined and glued in, or is this a method of clamping? |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:23 am ] |
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Dave, glad to see you've joined us "tenters", got to be the simplest way. For my tops/back I prop them against the wall after 30 mins to fully harden but 10 would probably do. I leave the go-bars in place for an hour, (or whenever I remember them!) on braces. David, After jointing and candleing the boards are taped together across the join with 5 or 6 pieces of tape on one side, I use electricians insulating tape because it has a bit of stretch, though most seem to use SM brown tape. Turn the board over and raise into a tent shape, apply glue (hide for preference) and then press back flat onto waxed paper on your workboard. Add 5 more strips of tape, stretching across the join to the pull seam together, more wax paper, weight down centre seam. Use your usual clean up timetable. After half hour or so I take them out and prop up against the wall so that the glue can dry equally from both sides. Easy peasy. Colin |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:24 am ] |
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All my bottles melt in the hide glue bath, 145 Degrees F, isn't that right? My bottles with the stainless steel bolt ballast, do the shrinky dink. Okay, who uses the syringe? Okay, I gotta go get a haircut this week. Maybe if I call ahead they'll save me some perm bottles. ? I used to use a cappucino cup with a nice handle, a sippy cup lid fit it when in the fridge, but I see you need to pour it out a spout eh?, forget the brush. |
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| Author: | Dave Rector [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:59 am ] |
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Bruce, I found some small bottles at Hobby Lobby in the art supplies section. So far they have held up well in the hot water. I think they were about .49c each. |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:11 am ] |
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Oh, my wife loves that place, it's right up the street from Jacks in Conway. Jack sells guitars and such, she usually just drops me off and picks me up after Hobby Lobby. Next time I go with her. Thanks. |
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| Author: | arvey [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:47 am ] |
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I have a bag full of bottles that the hair dresser saves for me. I have had problem with the perm bottles though as Some chemicle is in some that I just can't get out. |
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| Author: | Kim [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:24 am ] |
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[QUOTE=arvey] I have a bag full of bottles that the hair dresser saves for me. I have had problem with the perm bottles though as Some chemicle is in some that I just can't get out.[/QUOTE] Could be a good thing if your after a curly top 
Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | Mario [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:39 am ] |
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Bruce, you can also run down and buy a small bottle of white glue, I think Elmer's has a nice little adjustable cap. Dump the glue, wash it out, and Bob's your uncle... |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:47 am ] |
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so just use a bottle with an adjustable cap like that instead of a brush for HHG? Probably still use a brush for spreadin', huh? |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:58 am ] |
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Yeah, i was wondering the same thing, do you ever use a brush anywhere Mario 
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:37 am ] |
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I tried a brush but had poor success. You have very little open time with hide glue, I have found, from my limited experience that it is best to get the glue on and the get piece in place as fast as you can. Cleaning off the squeeze out is very easy after about 10 minutes, it just rolls off with a dull chisel. I use syringes that I got from a friend of mine who is one of the veterinarians in town. I use the set up that Sylvan Wells discusses on his web site and from a couple of questions I asked him directly. Plus I read all of Frank Fords stuff. (Thanks Sylvan and Frank!) So here is my set up: 
This is my set up, a kettle I bought from Wal-Mart for $20 CDN and I bought the thermometer from there also for about $6. I keep the temperature at about 145 degrees. I find that on the lowest setting my kettle heats up to about 165 right after I plug it in, but if I then unplug it and let it cool to 140 and plug it back in it stays right at 145 degrees. 
Here is a shot inside the pot. I mix up small batches of hide glue (I sell the stuff now also, 192 gram, high clarity) at the ratio of about 1.8 parts water to 1 part glue by weight. I mix it in a baby food jar, using Franks instructions of soaking the flakes for at least 4 hours and then 'cooking' it. When I am done I put the lid on the jar and the glue goes in my beer fridge. You can see the syringe in the kettle. I just draw glue out of the jar into the syringe by pulling back on the plunger and then leave the syringe in the water. When I am ready to use the glue I take the syringe out of the water, shoot a small amount of glue into the glue jar to clear any water that might be in the end, then wipe the tip with paper towel and apply the glue on the piece to be glued. 
Here is a close up of the tip of these 'anal sac' syringes. I leave them as they come but you could cut them back if you wanted a larger hole. They tolerate the hot water very well. When I am done glueing, I shoot all of the remaining glue in the syringe back into the glue jar and the then draw and shoot water out of and into the kettle a few times to cleen the glue out of the syringe. This is my process and it is working well. I tried brushes and glue bottles and didn't like either. The nice thing about syringes is they work with vaccum. If you don't depress the plunger no glue comes out, you have total control! Shane |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:51 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Dickey] Oh, my wife loves that place, it's right up the street from Jacks in Conway. Jack sells guitars and such, she usually just drops me off and picks me up after Hobby Lobby. Next time I go with her. Thanks.[/QUOTE] I bought a huge bag of HHG from Mark Kett and had him throw in 200 - 300 little bottles. They are great. They are tiny and perfect for one "session". |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:02 am ] |
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Very nice explanation Shane,  i might go with that method to get more control over the bead, where did you say you bought the syringes again  ?
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:13 am ] |
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Serge, I got them from an animal doctor friend of mine...price...FREE! Stop by an animal clinic or go to a pharmacy and take the picture, they should be abale to get you set up. If there was interest I would see if I could order a whole bunch, well I know that I can, Dr. Dave is a good friend of mine and I get them through his clinic. Shane |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:16 am ] |
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Mark sent me a pack of that glue too. But I didn't get any little bottles. ? I kind of like these Anal Sac Syringes. I'm grinnin' from ear to ear and wagging my head left to right! ASS for short, Anal Sac Syringe! |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:22 am ] |
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Bruce I will have to let the Doc know that acronym the next time I get some of these! Good one! ASS applicators! Shane |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:27 am ] |
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I guess that's usually where they go Bruce but if they make miracles in guitar building, preventing me from making one out of myself' u bet i'll use 'em 
Thanks Shane, i'll check around here first and if i can't find them i'll PM you buddy!
Serge |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:20 pm ] |
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I buy the tlittle bottles off ebay. I think I got like 2 dozen of these for $2 plus $4 shipping One bottle lasts a LONG time if you wash it out good everyday. Here is my bottle: 
And I keep that bottle in the glue pot filled with water next to the stuff I'm gluing up. See pot in the right hand side of picture 
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:26 pm ] |
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 That's very cool John, thanks
Serge |
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| Author: | Mario [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:58 pm ] |
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Of course I use a brush. For my teeth, my hair..... Oh, and yes, for small parts. Just take the cap off the bottle, and dip the brush in. As for spreading the glue otherwise, I don't. Run a bead(you'll soon catch on as to what size you need for which part), and clamp. The glue will spread itself just fine.... |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:12 pm ] |
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Thanks again Mario i appreciate it!
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| Author: | Dickey [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:14 pm ] |
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Nothing like an Online Correspondence Course, eh? Thanks guys, I can feel my juices flowing. If you don't see me for a few days, send someone down to the shop to check on me. I may have hide glued my hide to the workbench! |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:18 pm ] |
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Hey Bruce! Bowel's OK? I see you're on the move again! Keep hot water handy, you can release yourself from the bench! Good to have you back! Shane |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:21 pm ] |
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Man if you let your phone ring more than a 100 times, i'll jump in my 1989 pontiac 6000,will drive through all the snowbanks from here to your place and help you unglue your hide!
Dam i like this button!
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