Official Luthiers Forum!

Well, the thread on the blankets got me thinking once again about how "not to" burn my shop down.

I came in to work after a weekend, only to find I'd left my electric side bender clamped up in the vise and kicking out maximum heat. Cracked the mahogany base due to severe dehydration.

Question 1? Do you have a timer on your electric "Pipe" hand bender? I don't.

Question 2? Do you have a timer on your gluepot? As per Mario's suggestion a while back. I tried, but failed to get one on there, mine were defective, so answer is No.

Question 3? Do you have a timer on your side bending blanket? I don't, but I see the wisdom in it.

Question 4? Do you have a fire extinguisher in your shop? I don't. And I might mention, the little three inch ones by 12 inches, they last all of ten seconds. Enough for a trash can fire maybe. So a bigger one is in order here.

Question 5? Do you have a metal can, for oily rags. I don't. But after JohnK's episode, I see the wisdom in that. Someone mentioned even an old paint can with a lid, difficult, but it would stop oxygen from getting to the rags.

Question 6? Do you have a fire alarm in your shop? I don't. It seems impractical to have one, maybe a less sensitive type for shop environs? I don't know of one. Seems like most alarms like that are pretty useless in a shop, because of the smoke from bending and sometimes sanding.

Good questions Bruce. Gets one to thinking.

A note on fire extinguishers.

Get a substantial size. No use pi**ing into the wind when fire is involved.   Watch the recharge dates/charge gauges on the extinguishers and follow them!

AND....Place them by your exit doors. That way you have to go to the door to get it, then come back to face the fire. If the fire gets beyond control, you still have an escape route. DO NOT put the extinguisher in a corner. You go there and may get trapped. The shop can be replaced...YOU CAN NOT!

Hank

my workshop has been burned down a few years ago...
assumption is that its a neighbor cut a piece of wood which had a nail in it on the table saw and a sparkle flew into an obscure corner and grew stronger after several hours.
it all happened late at night and no body was there.
all my chisels' plastic handles look like sculptures.
had to replace a table saw, and the table-router/planer/jointer thingy is still unusable.
didnt loose too much wood but the few molds i had where gone.

you should all take Bruce's post seriously.
STAY SAFE!
Udi.

I do have 3 fire extinguishers in my shop

I do have a timer on my glue pot

I do not have a timer on my bending blanket.
but I do have procedure that handles removing any electricity from the blanket or other tools if I leave the shop. It is manual but it is religious. Unfortunately learned the hard way. This very issue except with a lamp that got knocked over by a shop cat cost me a guitar this year

I do have a fire alarm

I do have a metal can for oily rags and one for solvent saturated rags.
     I like to keep combustible fuels and reactive chemicals seprate.
MichaelP38737.6856134259

Okay, what size fire extinguishers do we really need?

Michael, what kind of fire alarm? Is it just a smoke detector?

Anyone have a good source for Timers to cut off 110 volt devices? I'm gonna go check Ebay and Amazon. My best electrical supplier sold me the bum ones last year, so I'm looking elsewhere.

I cant remeber the brand name but they are clagers that have heat fuses in them. I also have smoke alarms

I would recamend at least 2 of the 3" dia x 18"long ABC type extinguishers in the typical wood working shop, so that you ahave one in near reach at all times. I forget what their size is but it gives you enough chem for a 15-20 sec sweep. If you are not able to extingush the fire after that you need to be out of there any way.MichaelP38737.7353935185

I have 5 fire extinguishers, and will add more.

Right now, i have two 5 pound powder, one 20 pound powder(big guy!), one 3 gallon pressurized water(another big guy), and a 60 gallon, 85PSI, mother of all extinguishers(I posted it on MIMF...) Once a year, take all your powder ones, flip them, and hit them with a soft rubber mallet; the powder settles and can become solid and useless....

And when I get a chance, I'm plumbing some industrial sprinkler heads near the dust collector(have the heads, haven;t had a chance to plumb them).

I sat on a curb and watched the fire dept. do their thing for me in 2002. Lesson learned... BE PREPARED.

And all the extinguishers in the world won't help if you don't know the place is burning, so you do indeed need an alarm of some kind. Any kind.

As for an alarm, mine is simple as it gets, and so simple and cheap, it is criminal if after reading this, y'all don't install one tomorrow. Honest.

My system consists of 2 regular smoke detectors(First Alert), one near the furnace, the other next to and above the dust collector. And to be sure I'll hear them, I have a Fisher Price Baby Monitor(yes, you read that correctly) in the shop, with the receiver on my night table, next to the bed. I can hear everything that is going on in the shop, from the clock ticking, to the circulation fan, to the furnace, and from the two false alarms I've had in 3 years, I promise that if the smoke detector(s) go off, they'll wake you/me up! Man, that's a rush, but beats waking up to a neighbor telling you your shop is burning, don't it? The monitor is a bit noisy with static, but within a week, it will become white noise, and you'll miss it when away.

The smoke detectors should be in there already(if not, why??). So, this will only cost you $20 or so for the monitor. Want to be fancy and show me up? Get a wireless intercom system. Place one in the shop, and lock the "talk" button. Place another in your bedroom so you can hear it at night, and perhaps more of them around the house. As a bonus, if you hurt yourself in the shop, someone from the house has a chance at hearing your plea for help....

If sales of baby monitors don't skyrocket tomorrow, I'll be mucho dissapointed in all of you. Twenty bucks, and it could save your shop.

Oh, and anything that makes heat gets a timer. If not for fire safety, to protect the guitars you work on. We are too-easily distracted in our shops.Mario38737.7536226852

Doing a bit of thinking and looked around at the Home Center tonight.... here is my thinking.

Mario, the baby monitor and FM intercom are good ideas. I came up with a slightly different slant, to accomplish what you were after, hearing the alarm going off in the shop, while you are in the house.

For $9.96 each I can buy two Kidde hardwired 110V smoke alarms. Powered on either end, you hook up the other with 14/3wG wiring. The hardest part is running the conduit or overhead wire to the house. I'm on a crawl space so it's no problem either place.

Fire in the shop, I'm alerted in the shop and the house. Fire in the house while I'm in the shop, alerted that way too. Life is good when you think stuff through. So with conduit and wiring I'm looking at sixty bucks.

Checked the fire extinguishers, one that would do the job is about 48 bucks and tax. One more set of tonewood on the auction block.

Then, looking for timers, the twisty kind that give you thirty minutes, they don't carry them. And my elecrical supply has garbage units, that won't do either. So here is my solution. For five bucks you can get a small appliance timer, like you use to turn on a coffee maker or a lamp while you are on vacation, that kind.

You simply take the pegs that turn it on, and remove them. So it can no longer turn itself on. We want it to turn things off, right? Twist the little button to turn it on, spin the timer to the waiting off peg and give yourself from ten minutes to an hour or so. When the power goes off it never comes back on. Here is a pic of one. It's okay to leave both off pegs, that way you don't have to spin the timer 24 hours, just 12.







These range in price from $5 to 10, you can plug them into an outlet, one comes with a cord. One is a grounded type for heavier loads.

TUB-O-LARD SHOP SAFETY AWARD goes to Michael for having his safety plan, in action. Way to go, Michael!

Honorable mention goes to Mario for having the most fire extinguishers on hand and knows how to keep 'em working! We need to check with Dr. Phil to see if this quailfies as a fire extinguisher fetish!   

And another honorable mention to Hank. How was it he said it? If your fire extinguisher isn't big enough, just pi** on it!      Maybe I need to read that again.

Great posts everyone. All I have, I'm ashamed to say is two small extinguishers. I'm checking out some of these ideas tomorrow. Thanks fellas'!!

_________________
Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

I use 2 detectors and I keep one above the main circuit breaker. Got an old Federal Pacific, but reportedly one of the good types. My first week in this house my elderly neighbor had a breaker panel fire. 30 amp. Making a welcome to the neighborhood" surprise for us. That's how I found out about the Federal Pacific brand problem. Hired an electician to wire my shop and replace the panel, but wasn't needed.

For shop electrical safety I have power on one switch, and lights on another. Above that, I have a sub-panel with a breakers for each, and I have a padlock so when I am away or when we have company, It's safe.

My shop is in my basement, and it's not partitioned off, so I do what I can. I keep the new pneumatic brad gun in the lockable tool chest. My 7 year old like that tool a lot. Empty brads from it, disconnect air, lock up. Brads in a different drawer. That's the drill

Thanks Bruce and everyone else here on this most important thread. Now i know that you are used to read me cracking jokes once in a while but as mentionned up above, this is no laughing matter.

I do not have a fire extinguisher in the shop but i do have them in the hallway of our building and i have a sprinkler set up in the shop's ceiling

I do have a heat detector in the shop

I don't have any timers whatsoever anywhere on any of my jigs or power tools and plan on buying the ones that Bruce showed

i do plan on buyin' a baby monitor and a couple small fire extinguishers to keep in the shop by the only door there and to keep the next empty metal coffee can for oily rags

I will also copy this whole thread, print it and pin it to my shop board as a reminder of how easy it is to let go of your guards and of how easy lives can be lost if i don't think safety first and foremost...

This is one of the most if not the most important thread that you will ever read, you are responsible for your own safety, remember that forever!

Serge

BTW Bruce, i'm gonna go shopping tomorrow morning for those electrical donut boxes tomorrow, i'll probably start a new thread on this for safety reasons and count on your help if i'm off track to put me back on it!

Thanks Coach sir!

Serge

Hmm, good idea on the timers. I use 4 hour twisty types...

Only thing I'd add is to make sure the timer is up to the task; in the case of a blanket, that maight be as much as 1,000 watts. Most of these timers are meant for lights, so just take a look at the rating, before yuo buy it. Don't want to cuase a fire by trying to prevent one...

I'd like a hard-wired smoke detector system between the home and shop, but mine are far enough apart, and it's all concrete, which means no-go for now.

Got ya thinking! Well done!

GREAT POST HERE GUYS
     I have fire putter outters all over. dang I can't spell estingwisher . LOL.
Safety Rules in my shop

1 Red fire Ex at easy to ready places
2 no over extended circuits
3 timers on all heaters
4 first aid kit and tweezers with easy access
Oily rags go into a burn barrel.
Accidents happen so darn fast. It is great to be reminded.
Yes I do have smoke detectors in my shop. All electiricals are up to code.

John Hall

Mario, these timers are electric clocks and ratings run from 1200 two prong to 1875 watts three prong 110V.

Price is still only 5 to 10 bucks. I picked some christmas decoration timers which are waterproof up after the holidays for half price.

Serge, that's pancake box. Of course that's slang, due to the fact they are nearly flat, ..... like a pancake. They may only be 9/16 " tall for mounting your lights in your bender. IF you were mounting on a non-conductor nothing to worry about, but since I saw that metal in the bottom, yeah, you gotta keep it from shorting. Look for a round light box, about four inches in diameter. They also make three inch for small base lights, either will work in your case. You need some romex connectors as well, they get you in and out of the box safely, sharp edges cut wiring. It's a code thing. I'd drill a hole big enough to accomodate the romex connector, probably one inch.

I know we are discussing fires... but another safety item you will want in your shop is a phone.

If you accidentally lop off a limb, you probably don't want to bleed to death without anyone knowing about it.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

emergency backup lights, even just enough to turn off that machine before the power comes on and chucks a peice of wood at you....

Phone and emergency lights, good ones guys.

Thanks Bruce, i'm pretty sure i have the 3 inch diameter round like boxes and put insulation in each box. I slide the wires of each fixture through little metal tubing to protect them from being cut from sharp edges. is that part ok so far Bruce

Sounds good, EMT? electrical metalic tubing?

Now, how hot is it gonna get in your bender?

There is a definition for all junior electricians, it's ampacity.

Ampacity is the ability of a conductor to carry current under conditions of load without exceeding it's temperature rating.

Did you happen to get any high temp wire? Like the stuff they put in electric stoves and electric heaters? I'm a residential and light commercial electrician and we just do not use this type of wiring. But it is available. You'll probably be all right, especially since your bender lights will be on a circuit breaker in the panel. If anything goes wrong, it'll trip. I've got the same thing going on in my benders, but mine have the bottom of the bender open, and heat rises.



This bender is in the Jigs Area of the OLF, so you see, my heat dissipates upward and is open below, somewhat eliminating overheating near the wiring. But it's good to inspect it. If you are melting the plastic off the wirenuts or wire, it can't be a good thing.

I use two bulbs inside the form, and a silicone heat blanket on top of the wood. Usually I wrap in foil. But I have my eye on my wife's baking paper she bought during Christmas break.

Here is a link to my bender on the OLF

Bruce,no, just metal tubing i had layin around the shop and fitted the holes under the boxes .

How hot? No Kinda clue of what temp 3-200 watts and a heat blanket will provide but i thought of using maybe just 2 bulbs for now and maybe the third one under the lower bout side if i ever work with harder woods like Koa or coco .

That friend of mine i told you about gave me some strong red coated wire that you probably see in construction, said it would be safer for me to use that large wire inside.

I had looked at your jig before and it is great and simple effectively, i decided to build mine using ideas from yours and Jc Jones actually. i'll probably nail the first slat like you do but still be able to change forms on top cause i plan on building a cutaway press or caul on it too! Your thoughts on heat goin' up got me thinkin though. I might drill holes in between the fixtures to let a bit of cool air come in the oven!

The naggin' part is the wiring of all this stuff, connecting it i'll try to convince my friend to hook it all up safely for me if he's not so busy this coming week cause i also bought a timer today that when correctly installed and plugged should stop the oven.

So how all of that sounds coach, have i done my homework until now?

Thanks Bruce for helping me trough this, the form part is easy but there's only one oven and i want to make it right !

Regards

Serge

Hey coach, what do you think of my set up so far ?

Serge