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Double String Pin holes
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5210		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dave White [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:56 am ]
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I'm designing a 5 course guitar bouzouki/cittern (5 unison pairs of strings) and given that the total string tension is going to be in the region of 230-250lbs I think I am sadly going to have to forgoe my usual pinless bridge and move into the area of "top piercing".

I don't like the idea much of making ten holes and remember reading somewhere about 12 string bridges that had been made using only six holes/pins in the bridge and the pairs of strings sharing the hole with a single bridge pin (I think it was a Rick Turner post somewhere). Have any of you OLF'ers done this and if so do you have any tips/pictures of the design/process?

Thanks in advance.
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:21 am ]
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Dave, I have been contemplating a simmilar build too and was considering the same question. I think as long as you make knotches wide enough for the two strings, it should work. The problem is you don't want one ball end to interfear with the other seating properly. Maybe two knotches per hole? not sure.
You could still do your pinless but add some "hidden" flathead screws so it dosn't fly off and kill the Cat.
"Plug" the screw holes with the same wood or an inlay?
Hey, what's the scale on this instrument anyway?
I'd love to see your progress!

Wade
Author:  Dave White [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:48 am ]
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Hi Wade,

I think as the top is going to be "pierced" then I'll go the whole hog and use bridgepins.

I'm making the guitar/cittern in conjunction with Gavin Davenport (of Hekety and Crucible). I went to a weekend workshop he gave on playing citterns and offered to make a guitar cittern for him that he could "road test" for me. He plays in GCGCD and has 2 archtop citterns (a Sobell and a Toenjes) that are arond 630mm scale length (24.8") and also plays a Fylde guitar of this scale length in CGCGCD, so the guitar-cittern will be this scale length too. I'm going to do a 16 fret body join as per my guitar bouzoukis but base it around a more Grand Concert'ish shape - 15" lower bout and between 4-4.5" body depth. I'm into Celtic Festivals as names so the beast is going to be called Beltaine.

I've made a "Mini-Me" cittern called "Imbolc" based around my travel bouzouki, with 605mm scale length (23.8")which I play in GDADE tuning and this is great fun. Here's a pic although it isn't fully finished yet.

Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:10 am ]
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That's too cool Dave!
I'll have to try some alternate tunings. I can't seem to get away from the typical guitar tuning.
I have made a few instruments at about 20" scale with 4 courses (4 unison pairs of steal strings). tuned DGBE.

Can't wait to see what you come up with!
Love that "Mini-Me".

Wade
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:19 am ]
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It works. I used the oversize StewMac pins. Unslotted pin, two grooves for
the strings. A bit tricky stringing, but you get used to it easily.
[IMG] http://pic11.picturetrail/
VOL362/1585732/7682085/100982480.jpg/
IMG]

Well, I've tried every way I know to get an image to post. The system keeps
inserting spaces and line breaks.Howard Klepper38769.5984375
Author:  Dennis E. [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:58 am ]
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Somewhere recently (wish I could remember where) I saw a design in which someone used pins for six of the strings and the second string of each pair was routed to the tail-end of the bridge as in a typical pinless bridge.
Interesting idea.

Howard, I very much admired your doubled-up bridge pins approach. The idea of fewer holes in the top is very appealing.

Author:  Dave White [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:32 pm ]
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Howard,

Many thanks. Any chance you could e-mail me the picture at davetabmaster@aol.com?

Forgive some basic questions as I haven't done pinned bridges before. What drill size do you use for these oversize pins? What size reamer do you use after that? Are the string slots cut after the bridge is glued (and so they go in the bridgeplate as well)or before?

Many thanks again.

Author:  Arnt Rian [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:35 am ]
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A small point that should be considered is that you will have to unwind two strings in case one breaks...
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:53 am ]
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Arnt,

Maybe, but I thought with the string holes slotted, you can take out the bridge pin without slackening the good string to change the broken one. Could be well wrong though.

I don't think it's such a big deal though even if you have to slacken both strings as I like the idea of ony 5 holes in the bridge plate rather than 10.
Author:  Daniel M [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:53 pm ]
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Why not 5 pins & 5 pinless??? It might look really cool as well as simplifying string replacement.
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:42 pm ]
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Daniel,

I'll give the idea some more thought but my initial views are as follows. What I like about pinless bridges is the way they drive the top, and if I wasn't a little nervous about the 250lbs of string pressure I would use a pinless bridge like a shot (which is how it could be used under this string pressure )

What I like about pinned bridges is the ability to have the back part of the bridge much more aerodynamically shaped where it meets the top.

The different pulling impacts of pinned and pinless strings I need to think about further but my initial thoughts is that they would cancel rather than enhance each other. The pinned/pinless may look cool from above but the different break angles viewed from the side may not.

Also it could be confusing and perhaps annoying to the player having to work out which string is which and use different stringing techniques. I don't think changing a single string with the joint pins will be that big a deal.

As I say - I'm still thinking which is all part of the real fun of designing a new instrument Dave White38771.2383217593
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