| Official Luthiers Forum! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Down and Dirty, Hide Glue http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5236 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'm getting ready to do a bunch of gluing coming up and needed some fresh hide glue in the fridge. I got Kosha to save me up some bottles, a whole three of them to date. The little bottles with peroxide and other weird stuff ladies put in their hair????? Anyway, they have this little spout that gets snipped off and it's opening is less than 1/16th", just right for gluing up a brace or a guitar top. Okay, I trek over to Franks www.frets.com to remind myself of the mix is it two parts hide to one part water, or the other way around? I never can remember. Finally I get there and see it's two water to one hide. Actually 1.9 to one, or rounded off, 2 to one, water to hide. So I get the bag of dry glue crystals down, add three almost level tablespoons dry to each little bottle. You need a funnel or in my case a vee-grooved piece of paper. The opening is about a half inch. That filled the little four ounce bottle to just over one third dry. According to Frank this is a weight not a volume measurement. I know the water is going to fill between the particles of hide and so I top the little bottle off with water on all three and drop them in my Rival Hot Pot for a few minutes. It took about fifteen minutes to heat this stuff up to liquid form, tipping it over and back, over and back until all the glue went suspended. I put them all on the counter to gel and when they cooled to room temp put them in the fridge. Before leaving the shop I did some test gluing on spruce scrap. This will pretest the hide glue, that tomorrow I'll be using on someone's nice handmade instrument. So, three almost levelled tablespoons of hide glue in a four ounce bottle topped up with water and I'm in the glue. I like the size of the 4 ounce bottle and the little nipple tip offered on the salon hair treatment size. I'll be after more of these. |
|
| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Bruce...From your description, it sounds like the mix ratio was by volume and not weight. Before I had a triple beam balance I had a pharmacist weigh out 55 grams of hide glue granules. I noted how much volume that took up (not totally reliable BTW since particles need to be uniform in size and compaction). I added the 55 grams to 100 grams (ml)of water. This happens to be a 1:1.8 ratio. I used that educated volume method for 2 years before buying the triple beam balance. Now I mix it accurately and consistently by weight and always have the same viscosity. Having said that, the viscosity can always be adjusted to your preference by adding water or granules. |
|
| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I too use a scale, I bought a small digital one at staples for about $40. I use it to weigh all of the parts as well just to document what I am doing. But both Frank and Sylvan also advise to soak the crystals in your water for 2 to 4 hours (perferably overnight) before heating it up. I don't know what difference it would make not doing this step, I just do what I am told in this regard! Shane |
|
| Author: | Colin S [ Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
See, I've always done it differently. I mix up my hide glue 1 to 1 in a batch and then put it into an old ice tray to gel. The little cubes then get put in a jar in the fridge in the shop (along with the beer), then when I heat it up for use, I adjust the viscocity with DI water to get it just right for the glueing job I want to do. Easier to add water than granules. Colin |
|
| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I do the same as you, Shane...and for the same reason...consistency. IMHP, glue joints are too important to leave the quality of the mix to chance. I weigh everything, soak overnight before heating, only use distilled water and keep air space to a minimum. So far, in 4 guitars over 3 years I've never had a failed glue joint. I have a feeling I shouldn't have made that last statement! 
|
|
| Author: | David Collins [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I've always found it easiest to adjust by feel. When it's heated I like to see about the viscosity of maple syrup (the real stuff, not that thick cornstarch and sugar stuff from the grocery), or maybe a tiny bit thinner. The measured ratios are handy to get started with to help familiarize yourself with what a proper mix is. Measuring by teaspoons leaves a lot of room for error, due to the variations in granule size, so unless you have a good scale it will all come down to adjusting it by feel in the end anyway. |
|
| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I used to wait until the full moon to mix hide glue like the Egyptians. Then one day I ran out during a waning moon and found it didn't really matter. I guarantee the granules didn't know they were being heated or just soaking, so I soaked them then heated them. It immediately turned into glorious workable hide glue. No hocus pocus. We'll see how well it holds, don't forget, there are three tests laying down on the workbench to document whether the glue is viable. Spruce and hide glue and a pocket knife ought to tell me if I have glue or jello. 
Once I strained at a gnat, but swallowed a camel. |
|
| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I did some testing with fish glue recently and after an hour and a half of clamp time the pieces could not be pulled apart. I even beat them with a hammer! Anyone else have an opinion on or have experience with this stuff? |
|
| Author: | Skip Beach [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hey Robbie, I've not tried it but I read about someone mixing fish glue in with their hot hide glue to extend the HHG's open time without effecting the glue's strength. Seems like a smarter approach than using urea or potassium chloride - both of which compromise strength for longer open time. Also this would temper the fish glue's supposed humidity sensitivity. I live in the humid Southeastern US & am afraid of fish glue due to the constant high humidity (RH was 80% on a clear day yeaterday). I would also love to hear anyone's real live fish glue stories. Skip |
|
| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
The glue passed the test. Spruce was hanging on the opposite sides when pried open with a chisel. It was hard and dry in just 12 hours. Very crystalline looking. And it was like Maple syrup when dispensed. This glue came from Mark Ketts so I don't know the particulars. Works just like the glue I got from Frank Ford. Frank put up some article links on hide glue from old player piano rebuilders. www.frets.com Just look under his article on Hide glue and you'll find both. Even has some music that plays in the background when you read it. Cool stuff. These piano guys, now they love their hide glue with a passion. Me, I'm just moderately in love with it. |
|
| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Fish Glue...David Collins is our resident expert...and he loves it. Combining the two...hmmm...interesting! What say you, David? |
|
| Author: | Colin S [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I believe that Joshua French uses fish glue on his gorgeous guitars. Colin |
|
| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I like the fact that you can just use the fish glue right out of the bottle instead of mixing and cooking it. |
|
| Author: | David Collins [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I've been using fish glue for quite a while, but I'm gradually finding myself returning to hide glue more often. It's not because of any difference in performance I've noticed, but because I've been finding the inconvenience of the long curing time of fish glue can often outweigh the convenience of the long working time. I still tend to use it as my main wood glue, but for many jobs you really don't need any more open time than hide glue gives you. As far as the humidity resistance, I'm hoping that I can get to my testing in the near future (which I had planned on doing months ago but haven't found time). I've heard of people having problems with fish glue in high humidity, but I've never seen any of these problems first hand. I do know that here in Michigan I see plenty of old hide glue joints that have failed in humid basements, so I'm guessing that neither fish nor hide excels in the moisture resistance category. I think it's just a matter of at what humidity over what period of time they will fail, and that's what I'm hoping to get a set of controlled tests to answer for me. As to mixing hot hide glue (not with fish glue - I still haven't tried that) I don't typically soak it before heating it either, like Bruce just mentioned. The stuff I use is pretty finely granulated, so I pour in the granules, cover them with water, heat it, and then add a little more water to bring it to the viscosity I like. I generally start using it within an hour or two of first mixing it and have never had any problems. |
|
| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
[QUOTE=David Collins] As to mixing hot hide glue, I don't typically soak it before heating it either, like Bruce just mentioned. The stuff I use is pretty finely granulated, so I pour in the granules, cover them with water, heat it, and then add a little more water to bring it to the viscosity I like. I generally start using it within an hour or two of first mixing it and have never had any problems.[/QUOTE] David, this just made sense to me to mix and use it. It quickly wets completely, then as it warms, it quickly becomes that syrup we all like to use for gluing. Why I moved away from it using the pva's I don't know. It is a bit more hassle, I suppose. |
|
| Author: | Mario [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I aklways cook my glue one day and use it the next. I'd been told this by someone who would know(unfortunetaly, I forget who he was), and it made sense. When I tried it, it made even more sense. When freshly melted down, the glue barely grabs between my fingers. Yes, it still works, but it isn't as "sticky". Let it cool at least once to a solid gelled glob, then re-heat it again, and it suddenly changes. I also soak the granules overnight before melting them down, again, from the same source of advice. Not sure if this helps or not, but it isn't any extra bother, and since my glue has never failed me, I'm not about to change <g> Oh, I also don't use a scale, spoon or anything to measure the stuff. I just make batch, a little on the heavy side, then add just enough water when I go to use it to make it run the way I want it to. The initial batch is simply the dry granules covered with water and left to soak this over night. This makes a slightly heavy mix, but adding water is easy to do when you go to use it. |
|
| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
...Down and dirty... I thought this thread was about my other full out passion...GOLF.... 'Cause that's how I play it, down and dirty... Seriously, I've only come to use Hide Glue recently and I can't praise it enough. I mixed mine two to one by volume and it seems just about o.k. I think I'll try to have it a little thicker just to see... With the last batch, I mixed, waited for it to gel and I heat up a little piece in the microwave... Then I glued two pieces of scrap (which I just held together in my hands for a few seconds). About 20 minutes later, I couldn't take them appart even if I was blue in the face... That's when I realized 'Dang, this stuff is pretty freakin' sweet...'... |
|
| Author: | j.Brown [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Any photos of the jars/bottles you guys use for your hide glues? I've got a great one I use with a brush, but thought I might see what ya'll are using exactly for applicators. Thanks -j. |
|
| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
J. i don't have a pic but Lee Valley sells a nice little one for that with 2 interchangeable tips at the spout so you can decide on the bead size you're more comfortable with and they're quite cheap! Sergy |
|
| Author: | LanceK [ Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I made up a bunch of HHG about a year or so ago and put it in a bunch of tiny one time use bottles that Tim McKnight sent me, then placed them in the frezer. I pull one out when I need it. Unlike many of you, I dont find myself in my shop daily, so making larger bottles didnt make sense to me. My question is - How long would be safe to store HHG in the freezer? I know in the fridge its good until it stinks. But is there a chance of this stuff going bad in the freezer? To be on the safe side, I havnt used any that was over 6 months old and ended up throwing much of it away. Thoughts? |
|
| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Lance... I'm doing a non-scientific trial where I froze 4 bottles wrapped in freezer wrap. Every 3 months I thaw and heat a bottle to working temperature and then glue up some wood and compare the bond strength to fresh stuff. I'm at 9 months and see no sign of deterioration. No difference in bond strength. The color is very slightly darker than fresh glue but that's the only difference I see. I'd check for freezer burn which I believe is actually dehydration. You might have to add some water to get the viscosity right. Give it a try on scrap and see what it does. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|