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| Neck Joint - anyone doing this? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5872 |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:13 am ] |
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(Yes, I know, everyone here does a neck joint...) Specifically, I've been thinking about trying a dovetail joint, because of it's advantages, BUT I'm think that rather than gluing it, I might try to bolt it, as I do with a mortise and tenon joint. SO...anyone here use a Bolt-on Dovetail? No glue...all the advantages of both systems... If nobody is doing this...I claim the name Williams Bolt-on Dovetail. Don't nobody else steal it !  
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:32 am ] |
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I did just that on my first Don but i glued it because my joint qas so poorly made i felt i had to glue and bolt!
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:42 am ] |
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Don, you need to hand this one off to one of the youngsters. This a way to ambitious project for a retired luthier
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:56 am ] |
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I believe Judy Threet and some other canadian builders screw (as in wood screw) their dovetails. Check her website. |
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| Author: | Mark Swanson [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:03 am ] |
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Bryan Galloup does that- in a way. See Don, if you use a standard dovetail with a bolt, the problem is that the action of the bolts to pull the neck tight to the body actually works against the dovetail action. It has a tendency to pull the surfaces of the dovetail apart, since the bolt is pulling inward. So Bryan uses a regular straight bit to do the route. So the pocket is shaped like a dovetail is, but the sides of the neck and the pocket are not angled in, but straight. It amounts to the same thing as a mortise/tenon, maybe a little bigger and stronger than some would use. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:15 am ] |
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Don I don't know why wouldn't work if wanted to that. Both are tech mortis and tenon cuts, one is a dovetail and one a straight cut (I don't know the proper woodworking type of cut) I know you already know this though, but some may not or thought of it that way. I guess it has just become a well used term to designate them in the different terms (dovetail and m&t). The dovetail will hold alot of pressure and has done so many, many years in guitar building. Bolting it on would secure it like any other bolt on I would think, but np glue. I guess you would glue the tongue down to the top, or use the neck extention thing and bolt the tongue to the block, like Bourgeois and John Mayes (in addition to alot of others) Some make what they refer to a modified dovetail as it is shaped in a sort of V shape that is bolted on. It however would not stand on own without the bolt(s), since not a true dovetail. I am guessing your thinking of this for easier neck removal for resets later, since the dovetail is really strong on its own and and needs a little glue and is little harder to take off than bolt on. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:23 am ] |
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What Mark says. I can see one advantage in that the preset dovetail fit would help in neck alignment. Let us know how it works out. I think the only salvation for bolt ons is an extension that also bolts on, eliminating glue entirely. when I revise my neck joint, I shall be installing a one piece neck that bolts in the x and y axis. Darn that Taylor neck video. They just make it look so easy. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:46 am ] |
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I second what Mark says. I was actually thinking it before I read his post. (That's rare that I have a thought on my own) BD, I just finished guitar #2 with a double tennon. Slicker than snot on a doorknob! |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:54 am ] |
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I love bolt on necks. I've used the flush heel type but I'm going to switch to a simple tenon and still use the treaded inserts. The reason I'm switch is that the tenon helps keep the neck aligned both on roll and yaw. |
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| Author: | harmonist34 [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:56 am ] |
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Randall and Brian at Rockbridge guitars (www.rockbridgeguitar.com) have been using a bolt on dovetail from the beginning. Andrew Wright Managua, Nicaragua (Rockbridge dealer) |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:08 am ] |
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Don I'm afraid you can't claim the right to this one . Us Canadians have been doin this for ages (or a while at least). I believe that de Jonge, Laskin, Manzer and Alberico are doing this, among many others. I learned to build from de Jonge so I do this as well.
Like others have said the idea is that you use a bolt to lock the dovetail in place instead of glue. It makes taking it apart easier. These are bolts, not wood screws as Mattia mentioned. I do know of some builders who did do use wood screws. I am not sure if they still do. Josh |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:15 am ] |
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Hey Josh, a LOT oif good things come from Canada - especially my cat! So do you folks up in the Great North use threaed inserts, or barrels, or something else? I was thinking of a long barrel inserted from the top (under the fretboard) with two tapped holes... |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:27 am ] |
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I can't speak for everyone, but a number of us (including de Jonge and myself) use threaded inserts. The barrels sound like a great idea. I have thought of giving them a try but haven't got around to doing that. I would go for it and let us know how it goes. I may even get some barrel inserts and try it myself. Josh |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:40 am ] |
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Thanks Josh... I'll have to give it a try. It's a tad scary though, as I've never done a dovetail before. I imagine getting the routing templates from StewMac will help, right? Are there better ones out there for cutting the dovetail and pocket? |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:06 am ] |
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Don I am using the Stewmac templates, but I designed my own little system for clamping them onto body and neck when routing. I tried building one of the StewMac template holders and it didn't work for me. I am still working on coming up with a better design for that. The bit that StewMac sells is a 10 degree dovetail. I use a 14 the same as learned with from de Jonge. I may be wrong but I thought Martin uses a 15? Fitting a dovetail can be tricky, but after you do a few you begin to get the hang of it. The nice thing is that with a bolt on dovetail you can make up for a poor fit by tightening the bolts (yes I said boltS, a lot of guys just use one while I feel more secure right now using two. If you are great at fitting a dovetail you only need one. I am getting good at fitting the joint but am not great). I know that kind of defeats the purpose but that is the way it was on my first few and they are holding fine. You want to cut the tenon on the neck a littl oversize and then do the final fitting with a chisel. If you remove a bit to much wood off the tenon you can glue paper shims on to tighten things up. I use business cards. If the dovetail was being glued I would use wooden shims, but the business cards work just fine for getting a really tight fit with the bolt on. I have gotten to where I can usually do the initial fit and neck alignment in about 10-20 min. Then it takes about 10 min doing the final fit before I attach it to the neck. Josh |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:15 am ] |
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Don I kinda chuckled when saw your post cause I've never done a bolt on neck (but will be trying soon). Yup I know I am archaic but I glue them on. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:20 am ] |
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Am I wrong in thinking that is is a bad idea, that it totally defeats the purpose and function of the dovetail joint? |
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| Author: | arvey [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:06 am ] |
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You arn't wrong steve, I won't say you are right but my first guitar was a traditional dovetail, my next couple of guitars were done with the bolt on Dovetail and it does defeat the purpose and function of a dovetail, It was also harder to fit properly. I changed to a M/T joint which I felt was much better than the bolt on dovetail and now I use a But joint which again I think is better. I've always used threaded inserts on the bolt on necks, buy the inserts and bolts at home depot. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:55 am ] |
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Everyone has their reasons why they like one method better than the others. I know folks who build traditional style instruments who scoff at using bolt-ons of any kind. It all depends on what you can wrap your mind around as being the best for you. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. I for one cannot wrap my brain around a butt joint. I just can't see it, hate threaded inserts, and therefore would never try it. Others think it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's all good, and we all need to do what we think is right for us and our prospective customers, if we're in this as more than a hobby. |
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| Author: | Mark Swanson [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:38 pm ] |
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That's right Don, but I can't see why someone would want to use BOTH the dovetail and the bolt-on together. They both work well as their own method of neck attachment but don't work well together. A lot of extra work for nothing! |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:15 pm ] |
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I know for me that dovetail joints are no longer in my vocabulary, i can see why some people love them but my skills in woodworking don't allow me to deal with this kind of joint in a proper way. |
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| Author: | arvey [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:35 pm ] |
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I agree with Mark. If I decide to go to the work of a dovetail again, which isn't that much extra work, I wouldn't bolt it, it defeats the whole idea of the dovetail, and the biggest advantage I see of a dovetail is tradition. I've repard a few of those Guitars that Had the Dovetail with a #8 robertson holding them on. When the Screw loosened off the dovetail didn't hold it tight anyway. I suspect the screw may have lossened the joint up or the joint was made loose so the screw would work. |
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| Author: | Dave Anderson [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:25 pm ] |
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I also agree with Mark and Richard.It just doesn't make sense to me to use both dovetail and bolt.It seems the bolts would pull the dovetail loose and defeat its purpose.Maybe you could figure it out Don and make it work. |
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| Author: | Rick Turner Gui [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:23 pm ] |
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Just ask yourself, which holds your pants up, your belt or your suspendors? Or is it your...nawww, I'm not going to say fat a.. In fact there's no point to a bolted dovetail unless you make a really sloppy dovetail in which case the bolt(s) will hold on the neck where your bad craftsmanship doesn't. When I've seen Jeff Traugott do a neck reset, he gets the dovetail fit so well he can string up the guitar without gluing the neck to check the geometry...and you can't see a gap at the heel cap. Then and only then he will glue the neck in, and he barely needs to clamp it. If you're going to do a dovetail, that's how you do it. Me, I bolt the suckers on with fully exposed adjustable hardware. I love it. I can tweak the action with a neck tilt in about 10 seconds; that means a 10 second neck reset. I don't care that the hardware is exposed...just look at a banjo someday for a nice hot rod, NASCAR, Sunday in the shade mechanic's instrument. Don't hide the hardware, feature it. Or look at a pedal steel. I like function, and hiding it is more trouble than it's worth. For instance, did you ever try to adjust the truss rod on a Santa Cruz guitar? It can't be done with strings in place. And you need a dog legged deep socket from Hell to do it. Screw that. Any guitar maker who has spent years and years in the trenches of retail store guitar repair will learn a whole other way to design a guitar, believe me. That is an experience no luthier should miss. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:29 pm ] |
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My thoughts were this: With a dovetail, you can assemble the finished neck dry to the body to set up the guitar and tweak the action, and string it up as Rick said. No fussing with bolts etc. With a M&T, you can't do that. With a M&T, you obviously don't need to glue the tenon, making resets easier. My thought was to make a joint that merges traditional and new, that doesn't have to be glued at the joint except under the fretboard. As long as the dovetail ISN'T sloppy, a set of bolts will only secure it and eliminate the need for glue. That's the whole point of the idea. It would seem the good folks up in the Great North understand that concept...maybe I'm really Canadian! |
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