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The Forum and Selling Wood
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5906		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  bbeardb [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:56 am ]
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After seeing Kelby's post on selling Macassar Ebony, I gotta ask: So what's the deal with this? This is the second time I seen someone posting saying they're getting their chops busted for posting wood (Grant? I believe was the first and he wasn't even selling anything.) But then I remember seeing a post or two from somebody selling other stuff, tools if I remember, and it was deemed ok.

So what's the story? Maybe a sticky is in order. You know, the wonderful "New Here? READ THIS FRIST", that nobody probably reads that says: Dont swear, don't be a jerk towards others, and don't try to sell anything that is wood. you know, the rules that Lance came up with the other day, but add this point about selling.

I, for one, know this could be beneficial. I tend to get into stuff full swing, buy tons of stuff, and then burn out on it to move onto something else. So after I amass dozens of billets and resaw everything in sight with the bandsaw that I shouldn't buy, and build a few guitars and go "Ok, time to vacate this expensive hobby." I might have some stuff to sell too. Maybe. Someday. Or I'll just hold onto it like comic books or something silly. But if not, and I choose to unload some stuff, I don't want my chops busted.

In short, I think some clarification would be nice.
Author:  FrankC [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:22 am ]
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I am taking a guess here but the sponsors and advertisers here are paying to sell their goods, whether it be wood or other products. Since there are no tool advertisers or sponsors, thats probably why that would be allowed. I, like you, tend to go way too fast into things as well and had way too much wood. I just list them on ebay as not to offend anyone here. I thought about it then I put myself in the advertisers shoes and thought, would I want to pay for what others are doing for free?

Again I am just guessing so take it for what its worth and keep an eye out for the rest of the stuff I overbought!!   
Author:  peterm [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:41 am ]
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I think selling wood and other stuff here would be fine, but the problem is certain people (no one I know here!) tend to take advantage and eventually the forum would be crowded with people trying to get rid of their stuff at no cost to themselves. That would clutter this forum and then what kind of quality control and safe buying would the OLFer's get? If people need to dispose of their unwanted stuff there is always Ebay and other comparablesites! Besides, Lance and Brock are working on some sort of auction format or simillar for the OLF.
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:50 am ]
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Good Guess Frank! Hesh, right on!

Since the very beginning the Luthiers Forum has been in a constant state of growth and improvement.
Early on there were no sponsors, and everything was paid for out of my pocket, and donations.
As we continued to grow, there became an apparent need for better technology, hardware and software.

If we want to continue to grow and not stagnate with old technology, taking on sponsors was the only way I could see this happening then and into the future.
With there support, which is directly tied to your support for them, we were able to get the hardware and software we needed, and also provide the ability to have our dedicated server hosted at a state of the art facility.

In doing so, this comes with certain restrictions, for the very reasons Frank mentioned.

To address the needs of our members to sell there (own) warez, Brock Poling and I are in the process of developing a "Luthiers Auction" site, which hopefully we will be launching this spring.
It will be separate from the OLF, but have a family feel.
Its our goal to make this site different and try to structure it to avoid the often seen clearing house type junk sales at other auctions sites. Lower volume higher quality auctions.

I hope this helps explain were we are, and where we are headed.

One last comment, for the most part, there have been very few problems, and I have been very happy with the etiquette displayed here in regards to our sponsors.
Author:  bbeardb [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:02 am ]
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Yes, I understand these are great vendors, and I understand that they pay for the advertisement. But the big difference is that they are just that, vendors, businesses. I'm under the assumption that Kelby is not and just has some wood he cut up that he would like to sell. There are also several sponsor selling tools, Stewmac being the biggest. So don't understand the disparity there.

I also understand not wanting people to just show up and just start posting stuff for sale. But Kelby has, as of this posting, 183 posts under his name and is deemed a "Senior Member." So he's not some riff raff that just blew in trying to make a buck, although I'm sure he will. but there is a difference to the nobody that does the ever wonderful "Hello, I have XZY to sell, please contact me via Imaleech@andliketospam.com" Total posts listed, 1.

So seeing as this is a forum where we all love guitar building, or just have a wood addiction, and are all gentlemen and gentlewomen (even though I don't think I've seen a woman on the site yet), wouldn't the gentle thing to do be to allow a fellow enthusiast to sell off some of their excess unused goods?

I think this sounds good in theory, in reality I don't think it would work to well since people would abuse it, even if we are all gentlepeople. I know nobody wants rules, but there should probably be a "No Selling" policy unless you are a paid sponsor, and unless somebody posts specifically asking for something; then it's fair game because they are asking for product.
bbeardb38807.5054282407
Author:  bbeardb [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, it took me too long to write that. The last post I saw was Franks. I gotta stop doing this stuff while at work...

bbeardb38807.5049074074
Author:  burbank [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:42 am ]
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[QUOTE=LanceK]

One last comment, for the most part, there have been very few problems, and I have been very happy with the etiquette displayed here in regards to our sponsors.[/QUOTE]

That, Sir Lance, is a commentary on how you and Brock operate, on and -- I would suspect -- off the forum!
Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:45 am ]
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We are the only board (that I am aware of) that is commercially friendly without having a specific ax to grind with respect to promoting our own products. And, as a result we have to be a little bit flexible in our approach to commerce.

We try to be fair and balanced and always remember that it is the money our sponsors are contributing that allows us to pay the bills on the OLF. We try to protect their investment as well as to create a culture that is supportive to their enterprises.

The upcoming auctions will address the needs of the "non dealers" who have a few items to sell. We recognize this need and are taking steps to make the community better for all.

Author:  Serge Poirier [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:56 am ]
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The OLF is the 2nd forum i have entered, the first one i won't name because it seems to be a great forum also but never felt i needed to go back there where i posted only once and John Mayes forwarded me here for an answer. Right after my very 1st post, i felt there was something unique about the OLF, people being courteous and welcoming, sponsors working together, not so many rules, no stress and great help and sharing. If you add to that that you strengten friendship, it makes this experience a big chocolate cake for anyone coming here.

For the wood selling from individuals, my thoughts are that i will respect those who sponsor us and make a living with it, i don't have A problem with one individual selling stuff once in a while but i'd rather see a trade goods section than a for sale one . i'll go with what Lance and Brock have decided, after all, it is their sandbox!
Author:  Pwoolson [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:04 am ]
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...I understand your stance on this issue. But without any sort of classified section, there is a genuine need being overlooked.
Would it be ok if someone had some wood to get rid of and posted: I've got a bunch of wood, email me for details. ?
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Paul, I think on the surface that would seem harmless, but it would not take long at all and we would have people registering just for that purpose. Putting some sort of qualification on it like (X amount of posts before you could make that kind of post) would be unrealistic.
With our new auction site coming soon I think many of these issues will be taken care of.
Author:  Kelby [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:28 am ]
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I'll chime in here. Obviously we all have an interest in keeping the sponsors happy, and I should have talked with Lance or Brock first to see if there was a way to go about things without making things awkward with the sponsors. I had planned to do that when I first thought about offering it several weeks ago, but for some reason it completely slipped my mind.

To Lance and Brock's credit, they did not bust my chops at all. I simply received a polite, almost apologetic note observing that we want to keep the forum sponsors happy and offering to figure out a way to accommodate me without ticking off the sponsors. I completely agree with those sentiments and appreciate their offer.

Lance is absolutely right that it isn't fair to the sponsors to have "free riders" who are trying to run a business selling wood, and that any protocol they adopt should discourage that. I appreciate his efforts to deal with the issue. Personally, I would have no problem expecting those of us who are just selling off some of our stash (not for business or profit) to contribute some of the proceeds for the privilege of using this forum to do it. (If someone suggests an appropriate percentage, I will be happy to cut Lance a check for that portion of whatever I end up selling.) There are many appropriate ways to handle it, and it was really silly of me not to check with Lance and Brock before posting my wood.
Author:  Kelby [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:30 am ]
Post subject: 
OK, the end of that last sentence came out wrong.
Author:  Joe V [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:32 am ]
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For what its worth, here's an off the cuff idea. Assuming its not too difficult to set up software to track, let Subcribers sell a certain dollar volume of stuff commission free, and charge an increasing percentage commission on additional products sold.

Maybe the first $500 could be commission free. The next $500 would cost a 5% commission and anything over would be 50% (so no one would want to do it).

The idea would allow the hobby builder to sell tools and wood they no longer need or want, and through higher commissions discourage others from using the OLF as a free market place.

Joe Volin
Author:  MSpencer [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:43 am ]
Post subject: 
I am with Lance & Brock on this one, I also understand all the other comments and points made about internal trading and selling things.

My thoughts are simple, if you have something to sell, before hitting the posts, PM either Lance or Brock and get some input. One thing we might could do is a couple of times a year (or whenrver) have our own OLF Garage Sale, whereby, members and sponsors can get rid of some stuff or have a great combined sale. Under some structure like this, I would want a percentage, kind of like an auction, to go to the OLF. When I buy cattle or horses at a sale, I pay or the seller pays (which really means the buyer does) anywhere from 5-7%, just a thought.

I just think that we need to ask before we do something so that Lance and Brock can address the issue directly and keep everybody as happy as possible. I see especially new members blow in and have something to sell or trade right off the get go, understandably they don't understand what makes the OLF different and better in my opinion. I think that we ought to have a basic set of rules of engagement for everyone that is steeped mostly in respect of all and consideration. Then look for ideas that will open some doors without hurting our sponsors to do some things together, and to benefit the OLF so it can continue to get better.

I, like Serge, come here and here alone, it is like one big happy family, and I have never really liked Yankees as a general rule, (just kidding) but the info, the education, the fun and the great sponsors all make this a destination place for newbies and the oldies, and even some "recently retired from guitarmaking"

My 2 cents

Mike
White Oak, Texas
Author:  Tom Dowey [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:53 am ]
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Just remember what goes along with your suggestions.
Work. Someone will have to maintain/monitor it.
Author:  Brazilwood [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:54 am ]
Post subject: 
I suggest for one offs, used tools and the like, try our new site that was set up just for these situations. Luthiers Exchange All adds for the first 6 months are $.01. I intended to make them free but, couldn't figure out how to make that happen since it's programmed to accept pay pal. So, to register and place an add will cost $.01. This (I hope) will encourage people to come and use it.Brazilwood38807.5818634259
Author:  MSpencer [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:57 am ]
Post subject: 
I type pretty slow, I read Lance's response after posting and see that they have something in the works (Luthiers Auction).

Mike
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Although these are all great ideas, I do think the Luthiers Auction will take care of most of our needs.

Thanks for your input though, it is appreciated.
Author:  charliewood [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:14 am ]
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Well I am a total newb here, and I just wanna chime in with my minor observations.
I havent read all the posts in this thread, but>
I belong to another forum on ampbuilding - they had commercial sponsors as well as people who had businesses as members, they accepted donations as well, some business owners contributed that way but werent sponsors,"[this is where it got complicated}" in addition they had many ppl with fledgling businesses..> prolly jus like here.
The place is called 18W.com, and it is primarily a place for the 18Watt Marshall amplifier lovers - recently there has been a big upheaval over there.
As it turned out one of the memebers who had a business but was a contributing member and not a sponsor, was severely criticizing another persons products who wasnt a member of the forum at all. Eventually the ragging on this guy got to be too much, and he launched legal action against the WEBSITE!!!
This angered everyone involved - and now the mods had to eliminate all commercial vendor advertising period! Even thier own.
This may not apply to this site entirely - but its just to illustrate how one member can take things too far, and mess it up for evveryone else involved - I notice there is much more mutual repsect among the memebers here at OLF than that.
Anyway 18watt.com did have, and still does have a private classifieds forums for individuals selling thier wares - but businesses are excluded - i.e no vendors.
Mabye this forum could have something like that? perhaps it does already and I havent found it yet, I dunno.
Anyway - I love this site, great folks, & I would hate to see this site and the mods here, have to go through anything like what poor Gabi and Graydon and the rest of the kind mods at 18w web went thru!
Cheers
Charliewood
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:32 am ]
Post subject: 
As far as I could see, nothing was or is stopping "bbeardb" from posting his wood in the woodshed. That is what it is therefore. Keep in mind that Brock or Lance would need time to get it posted, but take advantage of it.

There was a time not too long ago there were just a very few of us members. Someone would ask if someone had something available and we discussed it on the forum, but we have now grown to well over the 400 member mark now. Things have had to change to accommodate the growing community, but every thing we lost as far as required limits is concerned has bee return in many fold with a wonderful fellowship and awesome features and benefits. For the most part there is something here, as things stand now, to allow each of us to do pretty much all we would want. As Paul pointed out you can let the membership know that you have wood available and if they are interested they can PM you or as I said post it in the Woodshed!!! Or better yet become a commercial sponsor!! But we cannot let this site become a free advertising forum and that is what would happen soon enough if we allowed open commercial posting in the forum.

MichaelP38807.6090625
Author:  bbeardb [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Just to clarify, I don't have anything to sell. I'm in they buy, buy, buy till it hurts phase. I just wanted to know what the protocol is. And I don't think you can post in the woodshed if you are not a sponsor.
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:19 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=bbeardb] Just to clarify, I don't have anything to sell. I'm in they buy, buy, buy till it hurts phase. I just wanted to know what the protocol is. And I don't think you can post in the woodshed if you are not a sponsor.[/QUOTE]

You are correct - the OLF Wood Shed was created to "show case" our sponsors "BEST" stuff.

Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:53 am ]
Post subject: 
my mistake
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