Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Heel - side gap
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6104		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Martin Turner [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
While Tracy's having her nightmares with gaps I thought I'd carry on the
theme.

Im trying to deal with a 2mm gap between side and heel on my classical.
The guitar is being built using spanish method and sides were fitted into
slots cut into heel block and then glued up with wedges glued into slots
behind sides.

The problem came about because of angle of slots being slightly out and
not quite matching matching curve of heel end of sides.

Any ideas on filling the gap would be appreciated. All I can think of is
putting in a spanish cedar wedge or filling the gap with epoxy mixed with
spanish cedar dust.

Cheers Martin

Author:  Aust Tonewoods [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Martin,

You could put a wedge in place but you would have to be aware of the grain direction so that the reflected ligth on the surface doesn't make the wedge stand out. You could also at the same time make sure that the piece you are inserting goes in at an angle so that it overlaps the rest of the neck material. If you do this you reduce the line definiton.

regards

Tim
Author:  Martin Turner [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Black Swan] Hi Martin,

You could put a wedge in place but you would have to be aware of the
grain direction so that the reflected ligth on the surface doesn't make the
wedge stand out. You could also at the same time make sure that the
piece you are inserting goes in at an angle so that it overlaps the rest of
the neck material. If you do this you reduce the line definiton.

regards

Tim[/QUOTE]

Hi there Tim,

How are things over there in the Wild West?

I have all the offcuts from the heel block area so shoudlnt have any
problem matching up grain direction. The fretboard isn't on yet so I
should be able to work a wedge in from the top.

Cheers and thanks

Martin

Author:  Rod True [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Martin, what if you fit the wedge so you have a solid block and glue it in place, than cut a shallow channel with a 1/8" chisel and bound the end of the heal. I've never seen it, but it would eliminate the line of the wedge and it may look kind of cool.

Oh, and by the way, Tracy is a Guy Rod True38819.135
Author:  Martin Turner [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Rod True] Martin, what if you fit the wedge so you have a solid
block and glue it in place, than cut a shallow channel with a 1/8" chisel
and bound the end of the heal. I've never seen it, but it would eliminate
the line of the wedge and it may look kind of cool.

Oh, and by the way, Tracy is a Guy [/QUOTE]

Well thats two big boos boos in one day then....the canyon like gap on my
guitar and calling Tracy a "her". My apologies to Tracy if hes reading this.

Interesting option of yours in regards to the gap....will have a serious look
at that one. Got some plain solid RW binding that would do the trick.

Thanks Martinkiwigeo38819.1519560185
Author:  LanceK [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Martin, I was thinking the same thing as Rod, I would try to make it look intentional. You could possibly use Ebony and tie it in to your fretboard binding so that the bindings looks as though it runs down the fretboard and wraps around the heel? Also using ebony would make any gaps that are likely to appear easier to hide.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:53 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm with the binding idea. Done right and purfled well, it will not only "not look bad" but could look great. Splicing in a piece of Cedro will do the trick but will always be visible, even if you match the grain perfectly.
Here's the way I'd tackle it. If you don't have a heal cap on yet, put one on with veneers to match teh side purfling. Then follow those lines up and along the fingerboard. Here's a rough pice to explain. I over emphasized the miters so you could tell what I was talking about.
Author:  peterm [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:13 am ]
Post subject: 
I like the binding idea too! Wedging in some neck wood will most likely look like a mistake rather than a planed "upgrade"!
Author:  CarltonM [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Ah, the genius of the OLF! An appeal is made, an excellent solution is proposed, and a template is drawn up (with improvements)--all in under ten hours!!! Just another day at the Forum.
Author:  Michael McBroom [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Martin,

Given your current predicament, I think Rod's suggestion is the one that will save the proverbial bacon. A continuation of the binding down along the neck heel will give it an intentional look. What's the old saying? The difference between a pro and an amateur is the pro is better at covering his mistakes? Something like that.

I'm curious, though. Do you build using a mold or an open workboard? I build classicals, and I've had to deal with gaps, some almost as big as yours. To me it is much easier to close gaps with wedges and shims when building using an open workboard as opposed to a mold. A mold confines the sides such that, unless the side slots are cut perfectly, gaps will show, and can't really be closed. An open workboard gives me the flexibility I need in this case. The guitar's upper bout may deviate somewhat from its originally intended shape as a result of this, but I'll wager nobody can tell.

Best,

Michael
Author:  Martin Turner [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:16 am ]
Post subject: 
Some brilliant suggestions from you guys..thanks very much. The heel
cap is on but taking it off and fitting a new one is no big drama (have
done it before!).

Cheers Martin
Author:  Martin Turner [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:19 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Michael McBroom]

I'm curious, though. Do you build using a mold or an open workboard? I
build classicals, and I've had to deal with gaps, some almost as big as
yours. To me it is much easier to close gaps with wedges and shims
when building using an open workboard as opposed to a mold. A mold
confines the sides such that, unless the side slots are cut perfectly, gaps
will show, and can't really be closed. An open workboard gives me the
flexibility I need in this case. The guitar's upper bout may deviate
somewhat from its originally intended shape as a result of this, but I'll
wager nobody can tell.

Best,

Michael[/QUOTE]

Michael,

I work on an open workboard. As explained in original post the gap came
about mainly because I didnt cut the side slots at correct angle. Sides
were hand bent as well so getting a sharper bend right at the end of the
side where it fits into the slot was very difficult.

Cheers Martin
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Can i say thank you on behalf of Martin? WOW, you folks rock, what a brilliant idea! Hey Martin, aren't we lucky to be here mate?

Way to go!
Author:  Martin Turner [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Okay,

Easter weekend is off to a very bad start here. Was merrily cutting away
with my brand new fret saw but without my brand new glasses on...and
hey ho what the ^%%^^&&..... that 3rd fret slot looks alot closer to the 4th
fret than it should be.

Anyway, as with any disaster theres a good side as well as a bad side to
the situation. The bad side is Ive just written off an ebony fretboard, the
good side is the latest catastrophe has taken my mind off the gap
between the sides and the heel block.

I once read of a luthier who gave all his guitars spanish names, think I
might do the same with my instruments.....anyone here know the Spanish
phrase for "difficult birth"?

Have a great Easter weekend all

Martin

kiwigeo38820.3465856481
Author:  Pwoolson [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
les costaba parir
Don't fret (pun). Try filling the slot with ebony dust and then floating in thin CA.
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Agree with Paul. All is not lost on that board. Hopfully you've cut the slots based on the distance from the nut and not from the previous slot. If from the nut, just fill the "out of place" slot and recut it.
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:59 am ]
Post subject: 


One other thing here Martin, when you've fixed the gap, make sure you push the fret board down towards the soundhold and line up the 14th fret at the body, it'll always just look off if you don't. You may just need to get a wider nut is all.
Author:  Martin Turner [ Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:35 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Pwoolson] les costaba parir
Don't fret (pun). Try filling the slot with ebony dust and then floating in
thin CA. [/QUOTE]


Too late....today I got my motivation back and worked up a new fretboard
and its all slotted up and ready for glue up.

I'll fill in the dud slot on the old board and use on another instrument.

Cheers Martin
Author:  Martin Turner [ Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:36 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Rod True] [IMG]

One other thing here Martin, when you've fixed the gap, make sure you
push the fret board down towards the soundhold and line up the 14th
fret at the body, it'll always just look off if you don't. You may just need
to get a wider nut is all.[/QUOTE]

Already saw that Rod....the original 5mm nut has been changed for an
8mm wide nut and the 12th fret is now where it should be.

Cheers Martin
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/