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Rosette opinion poll
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=612		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:58 am ]
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I am building the second in a series of OM's with a Japanese Maple leave vine scheme. The guitar will be Black Acacia B&S, Caucasian Spruce top with IRW binding maple/black maple/maple pufling, both sides and top edges. On this one the leaves will be Mahogany and the vine will be Maple. I am stuck between these two rosette designs. So I am requesting your assistance and will bide by the out come of this poll. R1 is Black Acacia and IRW main ring, R2 is IRW main ring each are purffed with black maple/maple/black maple

MichaelP38357.6245949074
Author:  John How [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:07 am ]
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Personaly I think #1 may be just a little too busy (although it is nice too) and I think I might make the ring a little narrower. How do you support the overhanging leaf. Hey your design is great!!! John How38357.6315740741
Author:  stan thomison [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:09 am ]
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Micheal both are just great. Send them to me on tops ready to go and I will let you know. I don't know how you could go wrong either way. I guess if choosing, the one with the rw and maple. These should be outstanding
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:12 am ]
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The back of the over hange will be stiffend by a 1/8 thick spruce gusset tied into the sound hole reinforcing braces and laminated with carbon fiber reiforcing tape.
Author:  Don A [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:41 am ]
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MP, they are both very nice. I personally like both. However, I'm voting for the R2 so the light wood doesn't distract from the leaves which is the unique design element.
Author:  Sprockett [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:02 am ]
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Michael are these pictures or photoshop creations?, I like the first one better it has more interest with the color variations in the ring.

I'm so impressed I want to do one like this, man that is just KILLER!!...

Now I'm inspired   

-Paul-
Author:  Dickey [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:11 am ]
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Michael, can you try one for me? Do it just the same design, but use only two woods. R1, but change the leaves to Koa on the EIR background and see what that does. John's comment made me think about busy-ness. See if dropping to two, rather than three will work? Just a thought.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:50 pm ]
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Michael:
I sent a road trip guitar out last year with a rosette very similar to the design on the left except it had 12 segments of alternating woods. The concensus was it was to bold and distracting and it did not appeal to the masses. I like both of your designs but the second choice may be a better one based on my feedback.

Another thought is to consider adding a third leaf. Groups of odd numbers are easier to balance and are more asthetically pleasing.Tim McKnight38357.9117361111
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:55 pm ]
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Michael, I very much like the looks of both rosettes. I lean more toward (and voted for) R2, because the ring is less busy, and less distracting to the main object, the leaves. I personally feel the two leaves balance nicely. Good composition.
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:11 pm ]
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I have to agree with Steve, the 2nd one does help draw more attention to the leaves (more Japanese maple?), but for some reason I voted for the 1st one anyway. I like the contrast of the different rings. Now that I look again, the 2nd one may be a better choice. So just move my vote over to number 2.    
Author:  Dennis E. [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:21 pm ]
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I voted for R2. A third element, such as another leaf definitely makes it easier to achieve dynamic balance in a design. Have you considered letting the leaves (or just one of them) overlap beyond the rosette and into the top itself?

"Outletting" the leaf would be a pain in the arse, (just testing the filter). Especially since you'd need to add a thin line of dark purfling to define the shape against the light colored wood of the top. But it would offer you some additional options for balancing the elements. It also would add yet another bold stroke in an already daring design.

Interior access is another consideration. I'm assuming your truss rod will adjust at the headstock, so that wouldn't be a problem, but access for future repairs or fitting a pickup might be tricky.

If I were doing this, and the idea is so attractive I may be compelled to attempt it someday using oak leaves and acorns, I'd consider building the guitar with an access panel. It's radical, but Boaz Elkayam and some others have done it.

Great deign!
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:57 pm ]
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Of the two, I like the right one more. It's less busy. I also think that the leafs shouldn't cantilever over the sound hole like that. Turning the arround and haveing them inlayed into the top would look just as stunning and be much safer.
Author:  Jeff Doty [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:09 am ]
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Michael,

I went with R2. Both would be stunning.

Jeff
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:10 am ]
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[QUOTE=Sprockett] Michael are these pictures or photoshop creations?, I like the first one better it has more interest with the color variations in the ring.

I'm so impressed I want to do one like this, man that is just KILLER!!...

Now I'm inspired   

-Paul-
[/QUOTE]
Actually they are jpegs from a 3d rendering software. The material maps are made from photos of the actual material to be used and assigned to 3d maps of the parts, rendered into Tiff files then converted to jpegs. I loose a lot of photo realism compressing down to 35KB to post. If I was able to post at let's say 1MB you would have a hard time telling that they were rendered.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:12 am ]
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[QUOTE=Dickey] Michael, can you try one for me? Do it just the same design, but use only two woods. R1, but change the leaves to Koa on the EIR background and see what that does. John's comment made me think about busy-ness. See if dropping to two, rather than three will work? Just a thought.[/QUOTE] yep I will post later today.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:21 am ]
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[QUOTE=Dennis E.] I voted for R2. A third element, such as another leaf definitely makes it easier to achieve dynamic balance in a design. Have you considered letting the leaves (or just one of them) overlap beyond the rosette and into the top itself?

"Outletting" the leaf would be a pain in the arse, (just testing the filter). Especially since you'd need to add a thin line of dark purfling to define the shape against the light colored wood of the top. But it would offer you some additional options for balancing the elements. It also would add yet another bold stroke in an already daring design.

Interior access is another consideration. I'm assuming your truss rod will adjust at the headstock, so that wouldn't be a problem, but access for future repairs or fitting a pickup might be tricky.

If I were doing this, and the idea is so attractive I may be compelled to attempt it someday using oak leaves and acorns, I'd consider building the guitar with an access panel. It's radical, but Boaz Elkayam and some others have done it.

Great deign![/QUOTE] Thanks Dennis. The truss rod will be adjusted thru the sound hole. That is why ther are only two leaves I have a ratchet allen for adjusting and it was planed for. I still have to be careful. This is a personal project and not a commision.
Author:  Dickey [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:00 am ]
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Michael, if there were a way to attach the leaves where they were removeable, you'd have the best of both worlds. Aesthetics, because this looks great, and practicality, it just makes sense to be able to access the innards for aforementioned reasons. Good job. Great Design.
Author:  Ron Priest [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:13 am ]
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I too add my congrats, great design. I also have reservation about leaves in sound hole. Funny I was just thinking about removable leaves, when up popped Bruce's post. Keep up the good work. I think you are inspiring us all to think outside of the box. My vote goes to number 2. Still I like both. Decisions! Decisions!
And we only have to pick not build and design. Keep us posted on progress when you start.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:16 am ]
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[QUOTE=Dickey] Michael, can you try one for me? Do it just the same design, but use only two woods. R1, but change the leaves to Koa on the EIR background and see what that does. John's comment made me think about busy-ness. See if dropping to two, rather than three will work? Just a thought.[/QUOTE] here is the requestd change Bruce
Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:30 am ]
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IMHO I like that one best.
Author:  Dickey [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:46 am ]
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This is all very interesting and I can see a great use for this procedure. Clients can get the feel for looks of any binding scheme and wood combination.

R1 with EIR and Black Acacia alternating ring. Then use Black Acacia leaves on the EIR part of the ring. Cuts the design back to two woods.

Also I have a question: In the first two examples you show the leaves as mahogany? Is this an actual mahogany sample? Appears very yellow for mahogany. If the yellow wood isn't mahogany, what wood is it?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:10 am ]
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Bruce i will get one up at lunch
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:46 am ]
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here you go BD...I turned it at a 40deg angle to show some depth
Author:  Dickey [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:48 am ]
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Just wanted to see them all together. Hmmm, what do you think now? Might need a new poll? Nice.

Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:34 am ]
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] Bruce i will get one up at lunch [/QUOTE] Ok in the morning I will post a new poll with all three. I have a meeting to go to right now. If you want you can post the poll
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