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| Carbon Fiber Reinforcement Advice? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6165 |
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| Author: | ATaylor [ Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:35 pm ] |
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I'm building some laminated necks with fiddleback walnut & maple. I'm thinking I need to add some strength due to the figure with the addition of a carbon fiber rod or two. I was thinking initially of a stepped slot for two 1/4 X 1/4 rods on each side of the truss rod slot. Is that overkill? Would one be sufficient? A better question: How do you guys reinforce necks with carbon fiber rods? As always, many thanks in advance for your help. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:12 pm ] |
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I use two 1/8" x 1/4" rods, one each side of the truss rod, orientated with the long side vertically, obviously. I think that's fairly standard. Colin |
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| Author: | ATaylor [ Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:41 am ] |
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Thanks Guys, Very Good. Sounds like that is what I'll do. Thanks Again! |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:38 pm ] |
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OK, why on earth are you using figured maple in a neck? The only way to get away with that is to completely overpower the maple with the graphite. The very worst necks I've ever seen were "fiddle back maple"... Yes, sometimes I use such wood in a neck...as laminates and with wood that's been in my shop for years. Then I put in so much graphite that the wood is basically there for looks only. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:18 am ] |
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Rick, the way I read it was fiddleback walnut....... and maple? I have some California Claro with a tremendous amount of figure too, but plan to make sides with it. I just made some necks out of birdseye maple and of course it's laminated too. Tell me what you think of this combo for a bass neck? TIA I have some 1/8 by 3/8 carbon fiber coming along with the flat-topped rod you recommended from LMI. 
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:12 am ] |
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Bruce looks good to me. I've used purpleheart for a center stripe on walnut and mahogany guitar necks with good results. As a longtime bass player, I got into this hobby by modifying and building bass guitars. I need to build an outlandish neckthrough. mabe it's time for a new project. Al |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:00 am ] |
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Sounds like fun Al. Not being a bass player, what kind of pickups are highly revered in bass circles? I'd like to copy this Wal Bass in my possession. It has a pair of humbuckers, but I think the guy makes his own? So, are there any off-the-shelf electronics that would make a majority of bass players happy? TIA bd |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:14 am ] |
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Not all curly maple is rubbery. When I use it in necks I mainly use hard eastern maple. Always in a laminate and with a pair of CF rods (1/8x3/8), so it would be OK even if the maple were soft. BTW, Bruce, I would want a helluva lot more clamping power on a neck blank like that. |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:38 am ] |
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Al: on my last bass I didn't use magnetic pickups at all. I used the Graphtech Peizeo saddles in a Fender style bridge, and the Graphtech preamp. The Fender noiseless or origional pickups are quite reasonable from Allparts. I've also used the EMG 1147 from Stewmac theyrenot bad either. I would like to try the Bartolinis, but the opportunity just hasen't come up. Al |
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| Author: | John How [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:46 am ] |
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Alan, one note of advice here before you do what I did. Make sure you keep those rods close enough to the center that you won't carve into them when carving the neck. If your using 1/4" deep rods than you should have a problem. Mine were somewhat deeper though and I placed them to far outboard, carved into them and had to start over. Food for thought. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:09 am ] |
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Howard, you are right, I needed just a bit more clamping on the Hornbeam center. Otherwise I got good even squeeze out on the layup. The hornbeam being first had pretty much dried up and didn't give me the squeeze-out I like. Live and learn. My normal necks get a whole bunch more torque, like this: 
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:28 am ] |
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Definitely place the rods as central as possible. I ruined a neck last month!!!! See the attached thread Ruined NECK |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:36 am ] |
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It's good idea to remember when you are clamping a laminate that your force is being distributed over all the joints. So, for example, in the photo above, if each blank is a three piece, you are clamping eight glue joints at once. What would be a lot of clamp for one neck blank with two joints may not be a lot when you are dividing the pressure by four. Franklin recommends something like 150-175 psi clamp pressure for Titebond. That is probably overkill, but do the math and you will see that you have only a fraction of the recommended amount, even with a heavy-duty looking setup like the above. Probably OK, but not as much pressure as it first appears. |
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| Author: | ATaylor [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:59 am ] |
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Thanks for the input guys! John - thanks. I plan to route a shelf on each side of the truss rod slot for the rods. That'll keep them as far inboard as possible I think. The shaping part scares me - I plan to be doing a lot of calipering (word?) during the process! Andy - can't imagine what went through your mind when you saw that rod showing through! Arrgh! Rick - it's a good point you bring up re: the Maple. Actually I didn't elaborate but I'm still up in the air around the center strip. This is for a "California Wood" guitar and I'm now considering something sources from California for the center laminate and something that will contrast the dark brown of the walnut. I found a bigger sample of Manzanita - really bright red - but it's not cured... still pondering. |
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| Author: | Phil Marino [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:50 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] It's good idea to remember when you are clamping a laminate that your force is being distributed over all the joints. So, for example, in the photo above, if each blank is a three piece, you are clamping eight glue joints at once. What would be a lot of clamp for one neck blank with two joints may not be a lot when you are dividing the pressure by four. [/QUOTE] The force of the clamps IS distributed over the gluing surface, so, to get the pressure, you should divide the total clamping force by the gluing surface of each joint (any one of the joints, since they all have the same area) But, it doesn't matter how MANY glue joints you have, if they are all stacked up, like the picture here. The force that the clamps are applying is seen by all of the glue joints. Each joint sees the same force and that equals the force that the clamps apply. You don't have to divide by the number of joints. Think of it this way - if you had 10 short ropes tied together into a long rope, and pulled on the long rope with 10 pounds of tension, each of the short ropes would see the same tension - 10 pounds (not 1 pound each) Phil |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:56 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=ATaylor] I'm still up in the air around the center strip. This is for a "California Wood" guitar...[/QUOTE] Isn't myrtle aka "California bay laurel"? Could be very interesting with walnut. |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:12 pm ] |
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I read recently that a clamp's force spreads out at a 45 degree angle from its point of contact. This lets you know exactly how many clamps you'll need for any glue-up, and where to put them. Just place the point of one of those plastic 45 deg. angles where your clamp meets the wood and extend those lines to your glue joint, and you'll know how much area the clamp is actually affecting. Overlapping the spreads by just a little lets you get away with the minimum number of clamps. Interestingly, this means that, if you're looking for equal pressure along a joint, you can use fewer clamps with a wider glue-up (say, a 2-piece top) than with a narrower one (a neck lam, for instance) of similar length. |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:13 pm ] |
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Alan, have you decided on the dimensions of the graphite bars you will use? I recently did one using 3/16" x 1/4" (from StewMac). I routed my 1/4" truss slot first, then double sided tape - tacked a 3/8" guide to the fence on my router table -- then cut two slots 1/8" from each edge of the truss rod slot right into the headstock. I routed my slot 1/4" deep, epoxied it in with a 1/4" wide hardwood filler strip. Once dry, I planed off the excess on the filler strip in order to flush it with the surface of the neck. The excess graphite bar sticking up was removed with a little dremel cutoff wheel. |
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| Author: | ATaylor [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:13 pm ] |
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Hey Anthony, Yeah, the 3/16 X 1/4 look like the right dims for me as well. That is a great procedure you described. I was thinking about routing the truss rod slot then using that channel as my guide for routing the shelves for the rod. Thanks for the tips! |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:06 pm ] |
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Phil, I think you are right. I thought about it this afternoon and it came up the same way--the pressure should be transmitted through the material. My mistake. |
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| Author: | ATaylor [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:03 am ] |
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Also, Carlton, another good point about the Bay Laurel. I thought about that but the only pics I could see of it (from LMI) looks like it has a distinct green hue. I should investigate further to see if there are other hues. Bay Laurel is a great tree - the exact leaf you find in the spice aisle. We used that for "deoderant" during my climbing days in Yosemite.  |
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