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http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=624		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  LanceK [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:53 am ]
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I need a good quality professional looking label for the inside of my guitars, Where should I go? Who should I call?

THx
LanceKLanceK38358.6219444444
Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:14 am ]
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Can we see it?
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:27 am ]
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I don't think is has been designed yet. If I understand Lance correctly, he's looking for a graphic artist.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:33 am ]
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sorry... read it fast. I thought he had one and was looking to print it.

Author:  Ron Priest [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:37 am ]
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Most Sign shops or print shops have people that can do that sort of work. There are also graphic design people who will complete a design for you. They cost quite a bit unless you can find someone just starting out. There is a huge selection of them on the internet.
There are programs you can buy or shareware that will help you, do it yourself. Incorporating your headstock logo,your location(not address),date of manufacture,model type, name of constructor and some sort of graphic and you should be set. Kinda like making a business card only slightly different. I have been thinking about my own label, and have come up with a design. Lance if you e-mail me I might be able to give you a hand (I am not working on my guitars at the second and could maybe help you with your design). It will help my old brain to think and dream up new ideas ( or maybe change old ones). So keep looking up. Its snowing out and the temperature is dropping. So nothing better then to curl up in front of fireplace and think of designs.
Author:  FrankC [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:36 am ]
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I have been thinking of this myself and was thinking I would just design a nice simple one myself and take it to a printer. Then again, I like the simple approach but if you want all the bells and whistles, a designer would work well or even a logo designer.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:39 pm ]
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If you need art done for a label I would be happy to provide that service. I can give it to you in almost any computer graphic format for your printer to use. I interested contact me via private messenger.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:26 am ]
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I have seen some real nice paper used that looks old. Does anyone know what it is called and where to buy?
Author:  FrankC [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:47 am ]
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Do you mean parchment paper? you mean the yellowish paper?
Author:  Don A [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:50 am ]
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Can't help with the old paper but I would suggest that you use 100% cotton paper. It is the paper used by libraries so it won't get brittle. It is a bit on the expensive side.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:28 pm ]
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Dave was it vellum?
Author:  Dickey [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:17 pm ]
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Staples carries some fine papers. I chose Ivory Fine Linen Paper, 25% Cotton for my labels. It has a watermark and is 24 Lb. cut. At the top of the box it says Credentials Collection, made by Southworth in Massachusetts. www.southworth.com 1 800 225 1839

Labbe you may be right, but these are at least high quality if not acid free. 80 sheets cost about ten bucks. Here is their definition of acid free from the Southworth Website:

"ACID FREE FORMULATION:
Paper which has no acid or residual acid-producing chemicals is called "acid free". Papers that are "acid free" will resist yellowing and disintegration longer than sheets that are not acid free. This is particularly true as the percent of wood pulp in paper relative to the amount of cotton increases, since cotton fiber papers are less likely to disintegrate or yellow than papers made with all or part wood pulp. Paper with a pH factor of "7" or higher is considered acid free."

I'll email them. (didn't have too, their search feature for acid-free showed all their products that are acid-free, mine, while beautiful, is not, bummer)






Click here to search Southworth for Acid Free papers.Dickey38360.5224074074
Author:  rlabbe [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:52 pm ]
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Bruce- but, but, but....

that paper doesn't say acid free. Or at least I don't think it does based on the web site. You need, at the minimum, acid free paper if you want the label to last nearly as long as the guitar.

All papers and all printer inks are not archival quality, either. Meaning, you can buy archival paper, archival ink, and an archival printer, but the combination can produce a print that fades in just 5 years.

Wilhelm Research http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ has a ton of paper/ink/printer tests to help sort through all this.

No one else seems to be worrying about this much, based on the lack of response I got on the topic back on the MIMF several months ago, but I want my label to last. The label in my 1913 Hauser is seriously degraded, and it was probably good paper with india ink. I can't imagine how short the life would be with non acid-free paper done with an inkjet.
Author:  Jeff Doty [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:13 am ]
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Roger,

I looked around the wilhelm site, lots of good information. But, what I would like is someone to say, "If you want your label to last, use this paper and this ink." I didn't see that at the site, as far as optimal paper/ink combinations. Did I miss it?

Also, can we see pictures of your Hauser? Please, please, please!

Jeff
Author:  Pwoolson [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:28 am ]
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Hey Lance, that was my occupation before I got into this Luthier biz. I'd be happy to help you out if you still need some made up. Let me know Paul
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:30 am ]
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I've seen the yellowish stuff. I am talking about a tannish light brown and you can see the paper pulp. It almost looks translucent.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:37 am ]
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I don't know if it was vellum or not. Don, you say 100% cotton...is that for longevity? What do you use over it as a protectant. I found this stuff from McGonical Papers that is called Clear Jet and it's supposed to seal the ink from inkjet printers. I just wish I could find that paper I was speaking of or even new what it was called. I tink I will try Staples as Bruce suggested but I went to Office Depot had they didn't have anything That I wanted. Yikes!
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:56 am ]
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A lightening bolt just hit me...

I bet a call to your local public library could shed some light on this. Librarians have to deal with this issue, plus they are fantastic research hounds....

Probably worth a call. I will try that on Monday and report back.

Author:  Dickey [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:41 am ]
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Paul, what makes a good archival, non degenerating label? I fixed an old fiddle, that a mouse had chewed through an f-hole. It ate half the stupid label. But, it was probably not after the label, but the hide glue holding it in place, so glue choice may be just as important as anything else. I'm mixing hot pepper juice in my label glue, eh?
Author:  Dickey [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:42 am ]
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What would you suggest? TIA
Author:  Pwoolson [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:00 pm ]
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Well, I think you are barking up the right tree. Acid free is a good thing. Cotton can be good too. However, the cotton rag papers are best where the materials are being handled a lot. Books, etc. The pages get brittle after awhile if there is no cotton content. With the label, it won't be handled at all so I'm not sure that is so important. I use an acid free parchment. Very similar in color to the background of this page. Maybe a touch darker. I print them out on my laser printer and mist them with nitro (a non-workable fixative will work well too) Afix them with hide glue thinned a lot. On some of my early guitars I just shot the backs with 3m 77 spraymount. None have come out but I don't think that's the best product to use.
Bruce, maybe a mousetrap in the soundhole will solve the problem.
Author:  rlabbe [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:16 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Jeff Doty] Roger,

I looked around the wilhelm site, lots of good information. But, what I would like is someone to say, "If you want your label to last, use this paper and this ink." I didn't see that at the site, as far as optimal paper/ink combinations. Did I miss it?

Also, can we see pictures of your Hauser? Please, please, please!

Jeff[/QUOTE] Ack, I didn't look around before posting that link. They aren't very well organized over there, and I can't find the main article that I was alluding to. However, this one appears to have many of the pertinent labels. Note that many of the inkjets/paper/ink combos only give you 2-3 years of longevity, whereas others give 100+ years. Just one example, Arches Cold Press Paper will only last 2-3 years with one ink, but 60-70 years with another.

I also recommend the book they wrote on preservation techniques. Of particular interest is chapter 11, which discusses mounting techniques. I would assume that this info would apply (to an extent) to putting a label in a guitar. To an extent because these tests make clear you have to test the materials under consideration. Mounting paper to cardboard backing is different than mounting it to wood.

I don't mean to be alarmist - guitars are kept in controlled humidity and mostly in the dark - ideal conditions for a label. But going to all this work to perfect every other aspect of our craft, and then randomly spit out a label on any 'ole paper on a inkjet seems wrong to me.
Author:  Don A [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:25 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Dave-SKG] I don't know if it was vellum or not. Don, you say 100% cotton...is that for longevity? What do you use over it as a protectant. [/QUOTE]

My only experience was when I was in college. You were required to have your thesis or dissertation on 100% cotton paper by the libraries. As they are going to sit on the shelf for who knows how long, I just assume they have the experience to know what lasts. As far as gluing, I'm still looking into that myself. I'm leaning more toward having labels professionally printed.
Author:  Dickey [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:23 pm ]
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In college after doing a pencil drawing, we would spray the surface of the drawing with hair spray to trap the pencil against the paper. So, it might work when sealing ink on a label? What is in hair spray anyway? I know it's water soluble. I believe it's shellac?
Author:  Jason [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:51 pm ]
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It isn't that the ink has to be sealed like lead to keep it from fading.. when you seal pencil your trapping the fine dust that makes the marks.. the problem with inks is that over time they lose their pigment/fade... getting your labels done on acid free paper with a lazer printer would probably be best.. Any kind of sealer (nitro,hairspray,glue etc) will protect the paper but the ink will still fade. I'm sure you have a few print shops locally, go talk to them about it.
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