Mike, does the epxy tend to gum up the abrasives? I`ve been reluctant to give it a go. BTW, good tip. I`ve plenty of women around here, I`ll just hold one hostage...
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| New Zpoxy fill technique http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6403 |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:33 am ] |
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Night before last I tried an experiment in pore filling with Zpoxy. Instead of using a squeegee to spread the epoxy I use several of those high density foam pads woman use for make-up. They absorb the epoxy quite well then I spread at 45 deg to the grain in one direction then repeated perpendicular to the first pass. You have to put a bit of pressure on the foam so that the epoxy runs out well but the advantage is in placement control. No over the edges drips and runs. This method does waist a bit of epoxy that is left in the foam pad but the application control is great. I sanded down last night and the 2 passes I made on Quilted Sapele did the job just great. It did well on the Mahogany neck as well except on the non veneered back side of the peghead where the pores were quite large. One more application finished them off. |
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| Author: | Cocephus [ Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:56 am ] |
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Mike, does the epxy tend to gum up the abrasives? I`ve been reluctant to give it a go. BTW, good tip. I`ve plenty of women around here, I`ll just hold one hostage...
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| Author: | John How [ Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:35 am ] |
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Cocephus, Most epoxies do tend to gum your abrasives but for some reason less so with Z-poxy. It also seems to dry faster although I usually do just one coat per day so it has 24 hours to dry, I have sanded it after just overnight drying without a problem. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:03 am ] |
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Ditto what John said let it dry 24 hours and it sands very well. Most adhesive formulated epoxies like 5 min and 20 min epoxies are bad about gumming up. But Zpoxy FINISHING RESIGN is specifically formulated for top coat epoxy finishes on fiberglass and designed to sand very well. It will powder just a bit coarser than say waterborne lacquers like KTM 9 Zpoxy is fairly forgiving on the ratio mix say + or - 5% but be sure not to add too little hadner or it will never dry properly. Also after I sand if I go through to the wood by accident I mix a small batch of a 60% Zpoxy and 40% DA and pad on the exopsed wood. Just to equal out color |
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| Author: | buddy lee [ Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:48 am ] |
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Mike, After the sanding's done, and when starting with the pore-filling, do you apply the Z-Poxy directly to the bare wood, or use some kind of sealer (like shellac) first? |
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| Author: | Dave-SKG [ Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:11 am ] |
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Michael, Can you be a little more specific as to the pad you are refering...brand...where to buy? Maybe a Picture? Also, I am going to try using 190 proof Grain alcohol instead of DA as a dilutor. I was told DA is very toxic...causes ireversable nerve damage to the eyes. Apparantly your skin soaks it in easily and it does real damage to your optical nerves. Have you ever tried substituting Everclear or other 190? |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:32 am ] |
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Alcohol's pretty bad in and of itself, but I do feel we somewhat overstate the horrible, horrible dangers of denatured alcohol. Y'know that stuff doctors disinfect skin with before jabbing you with a needle? 70% denatured (ketones) alcohol. Yes, it can cause nasty neural damage. So wear gloves. And then don't worry about it overmuch. |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:35 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] Alcohol's pretty bad in and of itself, but I do feel we somewhat overstate the horrible, horrible dangers of denatured alcohol. Y'know that stuff doctors disinfect skin with before jabbing you with a needle? 70% denatured (ketones) alcohol. Yes, it can cause nasty neural damage. So wear gloves. And then don't worry about it overmuch.[/QUOTE] Hey Mattia, Thanks for the tip. The next time I go to the doctor's for an injection I'll remember to wear gloves 
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:46 pm ] |
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Buddy, Mike will probably chime in here to answer your question, but my understanding is that you should never put epoxy over shellac. Adherence problem. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon May 01, 2006 2:01 am ] |
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to bare wood you do not want shellac under the zpoxy. You can put shellac over the zpoxy but not under it. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon May 01, 2006 2:02 am ] |
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Yes Dave pure grain will work fine |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon May 01, 2006 2:05 am ] |
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Dave the pads are just generic make-up weges sold at every drugstore |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon May 01, 2006 3:01 am ] |
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Dave if you use Zpoxy Finishing Resign do not dilute to fill the pores is is a pretty thin mix at 1:1. I only make a thinned batch to ad color back to where I sanded to deep but to fill the pores use full strength |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon May 01, 2006 3:15 am ] |
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Mattia I thought doctors used Isopropyl-Alcohol? DA is a altered methethyl-Alcohol Denatured alcohol is ethanol to which poisonous and foul-tasting chamicals have been added to make it unfit for drinking. There is more than one recipe for denaturing alcohol; some add methanol or isopropanol, some gasoline, and so on. (Medical alcohol)Rubbing alcohol is an alcohol intended to be rubbed on the skin as a disinfectant. Frequently 70% iso-propyl alcohol / 30% water is used; sometimes pure is ethanol to iso-propyl alcohol to bosst strength. |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Mon May 01, 2006 5:50 am ] |
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] Mattia I thought doctors used Isopropyl-Alcohol? DA is a altered methethyl-Alcohol Denatured alcohol is ethanol to which poisonous and foul-tasting chamicals have been added to make it unfit for drinking. There is more than one recipe for denaturing alcohol; some add methanol or isopropanol, some gasoline, and so on. (Medical alcohol)Rubbing alcohol is an alcohol intended to be rubbed on the skin as a disinfectant. Frequently 70% iso-propyl alcohol / 30% water is used; sometimes pure is ethanol to iso-propyl alcohol to bosst strength. [/QUOTE] Could be...maybe it's just the DA I get over here that's essentially the same as the medical-grade stuff. Content lables seem to be much the same. Either way, just use gloves, and you're fine. |
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| Author: | crowduck [ Mon May 01, 2006 2:19 pm ] |
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When I was in the Navy Medical Corps in the 60's we would 'make up' isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) by adding some acetone and food coloring to 100% grain alcohol, in 5 gallan cans. Sometimes someone 'forgot' to add the acetone, and a good time was had by all. I think methyl alchohol is 'wood alchohol' which will will kill you. Ethanol, I think, is grain alcohol, white lightinig, Everclear, and OK(good) to drink. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Mon May 01, 2006 6:49 pm ] |
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The denatured we get here, for the record, is not meythlated. It's denatured ethanol, although I don't have the bottle handy to check what the denaturing agents are, precisely... |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Mon May 01, 2006 9:54 pm ] |
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So, where do you get your Zpoxy from? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue May 02, 2006 12:16 am ] |
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Most RC airplane and hobby shops carry it. If not in your area then on-line the parent company Pacer products site has a supplier list and Hobbieco (sp?) sells it. Be sure to use the FINISHING RESIN. Zpoxy make several different epoxies, most are general adhesive epoxies. the Finishing Resin is a much lower viscosity and is designed to powder when sanding. Also it states a 3hr cure time. This is on the handling time. Allow to cure for 24 hrs before sanding back. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue May 02, 2006 12:23 am ] |
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I recently found a new use (for me) for Z-Poxy. On the workbench I'm building, I had 2 planing chipouts on the top. I just filled and leveled a few times over a few days and it all got back to level. Thanks for the tip on the applicator, Michael...I'll look into it. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue May 02, 2006 12:25 am ] |
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opps |
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| Author: | tl507362 [ Tue May 02, 2006 8:46 am ] |
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Jim, THIS is the cheapest place I have found on the internet. $12.79. I've had mine for 2 years now and still have a 1/2 bottle. A couple of quarter sized drops should do the body of a guitar no problem. Good luck! Tracy P.S. By the way it is part # PT-40. |
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| Author: | JBreault [ Tue May 02, 2006 9:11 am ] |
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JJ, that is a good idea. If you check out Fraank Ford's site, he gives a lot of great ideas like that on how to "recycle" the stuff we use. Mix up too much epoxy? No problem, just drop fill the workbench. Michael, great idea with the makeup applicators. Cheap and redily available, I like. 
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| Author: | mikev [ Tue May 02, 2006 2:40 pm ] |
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Ok Mike, I'm confused what or whom are you holding hostage, the pad or one of the girls?
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| Author: | mikev [ Tue May 02, 2006 2:45 pm ] |
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Ive only epoxy filled a few times that worked and once that made a horrible mess. The one time I used straight system 3 and laid it on thick. It ran, it sagged, it did everything you would not want, but I used it wrong  . The others I added silica and really wiped it off. Whats the best, silica or no silica, it seems like it would fill quicker with it since the mix is somewhat thicker. After the mess I made without it I'm afraid to try it again.
Mike |
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