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| Is this Honduran genuine Mahogany? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=644 |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:25 pm ] |
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Here is my question: Is this mahogany genuine Honduran mahogany or is it African mahogany or Khaya? My guys at the wood place today only had the African, and frankly it was very streaked with dark grains, not homogenous like the wood above. I don't need any learning experiences but it's time to stock up for the next dozen necks and it's gotta be right. TIA bd 
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| Author: | Ron Priest [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:37 pm ] |
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Talking with a wood salesman today at work and he was saying Honduran mahogany is getting to hard to purchase. Last time I checked they had some in 1" 2"in random widths and lengths, now they don't have any. He wasn't sure when he was going to get more. I think a lot is coming out of South America, I believe very little ever comes for Honduras any more. I guess we will have to learn to adapt?! Start a run on buying mahogany and maybe corner the world market?? Not. Hope it doesn't disappear altogether. It is such wonderful wood. |
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| Author: | John How [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:37 pm ] |
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Bruce, Most African Mahogany that I have seen has been pretty streaky or in figure I guess you call it ribbon. I'd say what you have in the pic is Honduran or something real close. |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:58 pm ] |
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Agreed. Most African has pronounced ribbon figure, but I wouldn't say it's unattractive. The stuff I've got doesn't have any 'dark' streaking anywhere, though. I tend to use African (Khaya) because I can get good stock for a little more than half the price of 'real' mahogany, although I'm going to be looking at getting a board of the real stuff, for variety. Here's the best pic I've got of my acoustic's shellac-finished neck. Lighting's natural afternoon sunlight only, so the colour's pretty much 'right': 
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| Author: | Bobc [ Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:48 pm ] |
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Bruce that looks like honduran to me. Mattia that african neck looks very good too. There are other alternatives woods. I have used maple, cherry, butternut and walnut and all make great necks. 
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:56 am ] |
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Ribbon strip is common with almost all varieties of mahogany (and there are hundreds) when the wood is very well quartered. From what I've been told, most if not all "Honduran" we get today is plantation grown in South America from Honduran seed stock. It's a bit lighter in color than the old Honduran, but that can easily be attributed to soil mineral content. I've seen African that is very homogenous in color...no streaks at all. Some "genuine" Honduran is still available though, in limited quantities and sizes. Grab all the good mahogany you can folks, it's now on the CITES list as endangered. We'll all be building necks out of other stuff before you know it. |
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| Author: | Paul Schulte [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:14 am ] |
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Bruce I couldn't tell the difference between South American and Honduran mahogany, they seem identical to me and I treat it that way. African mahogany that I have seen tends to be denser and heavier, and I believe is not a true mahogany. Mahogany is an oft mislabled wood often propagated by furniture dealers that will call anything that looks like "mahogany" mahogany. My local dealer has both african and south american and there seems to be no shortage. I buy their pattern grade south american (good stuff). |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:10 am ] |
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The African mahoganies aren't true mahoganies at all, as far as I'm aware. Most African is Khaya Ivorensis, I believe, and while it's not 'real mahogany', it's a prefectly servicable alternative that does the job well. It's a little coarser grained than real mahogany (sapele's finer, though), but looks quite similar in the end. |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:16 am ] |
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I kept hearing the reports, but thought it was so much hoopla, since I saw several truckloads stacked to the ceiling, three stacks deep, three stacks wide last time I purchased. Now in that spot was Khaya, African Mahogany. African is more coarsely grained and streaked with dark lines or with characteristic ribbon figure. |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:27 am ] |
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I believe it was on the East coast of Brazil at least on the East Coast of the South American continent, a huge storm came ashore and stripped a huge area of all leaves and limbs, killing the trees. Taylor contracted with loggers to buy the wood. It was a good story, making use of mother nature's fury and death of many trees. Now I understand. |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:44 am ] |
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It definitely looks like plantation grown honduras. How is the weight & density? Genuine Honduras Mahogany (usually swietenia macrophyllia) is not to be confused with genuine mahogany (swietenia mahogani) which is sometimes called cuban mahogany. Cuban tends to be darker, redder, and more dense than honduras. Plantation grown (from honduran stock) is lighter and less dense than forest grown honduras as it grows much faster but is also more uniform. There is less and less forest grown honduras mahogany left which is why plantation grown is becoming the standard. There has been talk of them adding honduras mahogany to CITES sometime in the next 5 years. In search of denser mahogany that looks more like honduras than Khaya or Sapeli(marketed as african mahoganies) there is Santos mahogany (myroxyllon balsamum) which has the look and color of good honduras but is denser and has more resin in the pores. If you are interested in genuine cuban mahogany, check out the cuban back & side sets that Ed Dick of Acoustic Woods in BC, Canada (a Luthiers Forum sponsor). |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:49 am ] |
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Ed is Canadian, and there may not be import problems with Cuban to Canada. I'm in the U.S. and for a bunch of years there has been an embargo with Cuba, try getting a Cuban cigar, legally. I was under the impression that tropical American mahogany had already gone under the CITES treaty. Dunno? |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:13 pm ] |
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Tropical American Mahogany is listed on the CITES appendix II as of April 2003 but only applies to mahogany from 6 countries where it is considered endangered. Plantation grown mahogany is not included as well as mahogany grown in any other country. I could truck a load from The issue is that it is easy to get around CITES by processing the lumber into parts in the country of origin and at that point it is not regulated at all. "The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced, effective November 15, 2003, it is implementing new international permit requirements to regulate trade in neotropical bigleaf mahogany under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). Valid CITES import and re-export permits are now required for logs, sawn wood, veneer sheets, and plywood. Permits are not needed for other parts, derivatives or products." Because of that last clause, deforestration can continue as long as part of the processing of the lumber is done before importing. Because of that there is a new proposal that would cover all byproducts from all listed species. If that goes into effect then the only legal use would be from existing inventory which could not then be exported without providing provenance of origin and age. That would be an enforcement nightmare and lobbyists will make sure that it doesnt go through. To give an example of how far this can go about a year ago a concert pianist was to give a concert in Canada and was transporting his vintage Steinway from New York state into Canada. Because the keys were ivory and ivory is covered under CITES, the piano was stopped at the border because the owner couldnt show that the ivory Steinway had built the piano with in 1928 was the same ivory that was still on the piano!!! Eventually this got resolved but CITES is an important thing to be aware for because of abuses, the regulations will go overboard and restrict everything before then being adjusted for reality. I only build classical guitars and classical players are a very conservative lot who believe that classical guitars must be made from Brazilian Rosewood with German Spruce tops... In December customs officials in Spain busted a rosewood smuggling cartel that was bringing in old growth brazilian rosewood in containers with cocobolo. Because of things like this CITES will only get stricter and may soon regulate not just the raw wood but the byproducts as well. The Brazilian Rosewood I use in my classicals is shipped with a CITES export certificate so that I can prove that I used legally obtained wood when I sell a guitar oversees for export. Obviously the stashs of Brazilian that turn up every now and then dont have a CITES certificate but one can be applied for if any documentation exists that traces it prior to CITES. If you search on eBay for Brazilian Rosewood you will see sellers selling Brazilian that is new growth, poor quality rosewood coming from Brazil but if you ask them for any documentation or a CITES export cert, they will not respond yet they sell it every week. The quality Brazilian that others such as Colonial sells (awesome stuff) is so obviously old, primo stuff that no one would mistake for after CITES. Buying the best quality tonewoods from reputable dealers now while we can get quality rosewood, mahogany, ebony, etc. is a wise investment in that oncce it is gone the only alternative will be plantation grown which will never match the beauty of slow old growth. |
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| Author: | Jeff Doty [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:45 am ] |
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Shawn, That was a really great post. I learned a lot, thank you. You need to put a bio in the luthiers bio section so we can learn more about you. Since your a classical builder, I am sure I will be picking your brain! Jeff |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:20 am ] |
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Shawn, I agree, put up a luthier's bio on the page at the top by emailing to Lance for posting. You guys and your Brazilian amaze me. I just have a hard time mentally paying that much for a set of back and sides. Thanks for the CITES info on tropical American Mahogany, what countries are affected presently? |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:26 am ] |
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I have no problem MENTALLY paying for it... it is when it comes to me paying for it in REAL dollars that I get a little squimish. 
I am just messing with you.... I knew what you meant.
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:23 pm ] |
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Bruce---fine looking guitar, by the way. And from here in East Texas, the neck does indeed look like "Honduran" mahogany. Go get some more! |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:54 pm ] |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:36 am ] |
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I use three different Swietenia species in my guitar making. The very best (in my humble opinion) is Cuban Mahogany Swietenia mahogani, the true "Genuine Mahogany". My tonewood supplier in England has stock which was imported from Jamaica in 1908 it's a truly beautiful wood with a Specific Gravity (SG) of 800Kg/m3 (0.80) ( the same as EIRW!) tight grained and easy to finish. His catalogue says of it "Those of us that have been able to work this timber regard it a measure to judge other woods by" and I have to agree. This is JAMAICAN wood so shouldn't be subject to US restrictions, so get your suppliers to look at the other Carribean Islands for supply. My choice for stiff stable necks. The next best is the small leaved mahogany Swietenia microphylla ( also known confusingly as "Genuine Mahogany") it works well, bends well, and makes a great guitar. SG of 0.70. Finally and only as a last resort I would use Honduran, Swietenia macrophylla, the large leaved mahogany (also confusingly known as Genuine mahogany) SG of 0.64. For a truly great blues/fingerstyle guitar with that old mahogany growl you can't (again in my humble opinion) beat a Small-leaved (S.Microphylla) mahogany body & sides and European spruce top. Even tone, responsive, strong fundamentals, good separation, heaven!. S macrophylla is but a poor substitute. Still it wouldn't do if we all agreed would it?
Colin |
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