Official Luthiers Forum!

I know I am new here, I like it here alot, and I hope what I have to say doesnt affect my ability to remain here But I fell I have to at least say this.
Because no-one else seems to want to. When I first came here I wasnt looking for pity, and I certainly wasnt looking for handouts, by telling my story I was trying to relate my intense passion for luthiery and my fierce ambition of accomplishing this goal no matter what obstacles were placed in my way.
   I got a very warm response from everyone here, and you guys made me feel at home right away for which I am thankful. Im not sure if you guys know what that meant to me - but it really helped me with my trust and respect for fellow human beings again.
People are certainly kind here, and I have accelerated my learning curve 100 fold since joining, and although I havent had much to contribute except for the odd wisecrack or "nice guitar" - I have certainly absorbed alot - I come, I sift, I read - I research, I ask!'
I know there have been sour feelings for a certain member, and the backlash has even led to his dismissal as a member here. I wasnt even aware of the goings on until it was over.
I would have said something then - just so everyone knows.
I know alot of people here feel passionately about guitars, about the environment, nature, and earth - and that can lead to alot of bold statements when they percieve someone else is doing what, they consider, an "ill" towards what, they feel, they need to protect.
Well I happen to know that sometimes people are interested in an issue, and inform themselves to a certain degree about it, and they may even have an opinion about how they feel it can be fixed or remedied. But all this without any direct firsthand knowledge of what is going on on the frontlines.
Its like Darfur, we all know how evil the situation is {I hope}- but none of us really knows what its like to be there!
I feel this may be the situation with recent atacks on Jeff Binion.
Jeff Bimnion is a stand up class A guy in my book.
I also live in an active logging zone, where there is ravaging going on as I speak - there are trucks blowing by stacked to the brim with timber constantly. This is how the Lumber yards have what we need when we need it.
I have been in the forest a great deal before my accident and even after - I loved the bush, and spent as much time as I could there my entire life.
I have seen the blatant disregard for our beautiful earth, and the destruction of habitat of our wildlife, the mismanagement of our resources, my whole heart sinks at times!!
I have seen the stack and stacks of so called wastewood, > Yew, Dogwood, Holly, Snags, Burls, Yellow and Red Cedar, Fir, Spruce, Crotchwood, Maple, etc etc etc. All stacked on high, either - rotting; ready to be burned or burned to ashes -
When I walked, I would drag whatever I could out of slashpiles to try and allow this precious beautiful material to live on. I was considered a pirate! I was percieved as the lawbreaker???!!!!
The only people I ever saw allowed to gather material from slashpiles were firewood guys and shakeblockers, that doesnt help us much and it certainly doesnt conserve the resource. Mabye this has changed lately I have been out of the loop somewhat.
And from what I know with respect to the BRW on his site - Jeff salvages the majority of it from wastewood from the veneer industry, from what I understand. Perfectly legal under Brazil law - which is where he lives!
Wood that would otherwise be turned into pulp for paper, chipped, or burnt, or left to rot....................and some of what he does goes back into the local working poor Brazilian economy.
Is this an evil against any of us or the envoronment? - or does it really preserve what little BRW can be saved? - so it will ring for centuries instead of being used to clean someone butt, or scribbled on, or worse not utilized at all!
When I read the spam post - I feel it was quite slanderous toward Jeff and his business, and I dont think that how it went down, was really looked at from his perspective. If that thread was about me and my business, I think I probably would have lost it too! Especially when so much of it was pure fabrication, which intentionally or not, made Jeff look like some sleazy prescription drug spammer or con artist. Whe in reality he was trying to offer an expensive set of B&S to someone who couldnt normally afford it, potentially, and I happen to kow he probably lost money on the raffle too.
When I first joined, Jeff read my story - he contacted me out of the blue, and offered me guitar building material free of charge, because he understood how limited my budget was, and offered to guide me through whatever steps in luthiery I needed help with.
He has been supportive, and kind, and generous to a fault. Does this sound like an ******** to you?
I really had my life decimated, and devestated when someone took from me what they did, the use of half my body, the means to support myself, dignity, freedom, independance, the list goes on, and by a total stranger.
It made my faith in humanity plummet, to lose the use of my legs and almost my life at the hands of another.
But then to recieve an act of random kindness such as the one Jeff laid on me. Well I have to say that it really fortified my heart - and I thank him for that, he didnt have to do it....but he did!
What he said about the OLF and its founding members I have no idea of the truth of that, and I have no opinion on that either.
Perhaps what he said about some people was out of frustration - I can honestly say I have never seen another thread where someone has been called into question the way he has! And it was by memebers here more so than the Mods or Admins.
And its sort of like when two kids have a problem with one another - at first its all talk, then one of the kids gets a bunch of guys behind him, then, he has the courage to call him out. Thats what the spam thread seemed like to me.
I know what Jeff said was probably defensive, but in a way I feel he had the right to be defensive somewhat.
I would have felt attacked also.
   He may have stepped over the line - but really, no-one came to his defense, and some people took it upon themselves to personally make him look really, really, bad. Is that fair?
Re-read the thread and instead of braziltonewoods, spammer, con{artist}and Jeff - insert your own name - see how you would have felt.
I have no problem with any member here - I am not trying to be a d*ck to anyone - in fact I feel I owe alot to the OLF, but I happen to know Jeff is an incredble luthier, and a terrific, intelligent guy whos willing to help his fellow earthlings from time to time.
I hope one day to inspire someone the way he has inspired me.
Cheers
Charliewoodcharliewood38840.4647569444

Charliewood,

Some heartfelt words there bro.

I don't know if it's the time difference in the UK but all of this has swept me by. I've not seen the spam post you are referring to nor do I have a clue what it was about. That can happen though - you go to sleep, the world explodes, is re-built and tidied and when you wake up it's as though nothing has happened.

Didn't know that OLF members were removed - although they can walk away temporarily or permanently. It seems a pretty forgiving place here to me though and hard to stay away from for long. Lance, Brock and co have created a great little haven here imho.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Thank you Charlie for the courage you've just shown and that i did not have in the thread you mention, I have to say that i felt uncomfortable receiving mail from Jeff just because he wasn't registered here as a sponsor and therefor, by means of loyalty to all who sponsor here, it felt like i had to say something, maybe by guilt of sifting through his website. I too heard from people here how great this guy is, i just wish he could have registered as a sponsor and stayed to share his knowledge with us. I just hope that if he reads this, he understands that i didn't mean no harm to him personnaly nor to his business, his situation is ackward enough as it is, i just wish the best for him because indeed it was a sad day when Lance had to take that tearing decision and i sure pray God that no one else gets thrown out of here anymore, that we can all get along and discuss in a civil manner with open minds.

Serge

Well said.

I stay away from discussions on Brazilian Rosewood, mostly, because it's a hairy, messy area to say the least. I've had very good service, and top-notch wood (some fantastic Pau Ferro) from Jeff, though, never been 'spammed' by him, and it's not unlikely I'll be ordering from him again in future.

And that's all I'm going to say.

I don’t know wither to leave this alone or comment.

Guess ill comment

Charlie,
There were 30 posts made before Braziltonewoods was mentioned by name. At that point in time, I honestly did not know who everyone was talking about, I also believe (even now) that not everyone had the same person/company in mind.

Directly after Braziltonewoods was mentioned by name Jeff spoke up as if everything that was said, was said directly about him, which I still dont get?


Now, just so you know, I also happen to think Jeff is a good guy, we have emailed off forum many times. Jeff was a sponsor at the OLF as well. So there IS a history of goodwill that cannot be disregarded. It was much harder than anyone here knows for me to have made that post.

But his personal attacks on ME and OLF members for whom he did not even know were referring to him in their posts was inexcusable, and puts at risk the culture of the OLF community.


Also, I did not delete Jeff's account, or ban his IP from the OLF; I simply asked that he not participate any longer.

The issue of legal or illegal tone woods comes with a mired of opinions and wannabe experts, as well as those in the know (I am neither). This may be one of the hotter topics that's brought up on the OLF.

Its up to each one of us to use self control regarding what we say, after all its there forever. Every word spoken on the OLF either adds to the collective value of the community or takes away from it. I feel last Monday we took a big step backwards, and it saddened me.

I don’t agree with publicly bashing anyone or anyone’s business, and would prefer no one does it here either.

I am not proud of the call I felt I had to make, but I did feel it was necessary. I have been accused both publicly at the OLF and via emails for not moderating the OLF with a hard enough hand. I have resisted stepping in unless absolutely necessary. I will continue to do it this way as long as I can.

Finally, you asked each of us to put our name in where braziltonewoods, spammer, con{artist}and Jeff are mentioned, why would we do that if we did not know that that is what is being referred to in each of the posts?

I did not know and STILL do not know who everyone was refering too. I say this because I receive spam from no less than three wood vendors a week, none of which I signed up for, and NONE of which are Braziltonewoods!


Just for the record here are the instanced of each of your examples.

(braziltonewoods) 1 time
(spammer)       never mentioned
(con artist)    never mentioned

(brazilwoods guy) twice, once by paddy and once by Jeff.

Lance

PS, weve never had to deleted a users account.

I am sorry to everyone here that this has happened, especially to Jeff, I really do wish him the best. But I really think I had no option.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Serge, at one point Jeff was a sponser. If you watch the sponsers list, some of them will stop being sponsors for a little while and then come back to being a sponser (like Craig Holden). The reasons don't really matter to me. I say once a sponser, always a sponser. I think this whole mess was one where cooler heads could've made a world of difference. Thankfully, this type of thing has only happened a couple of times....really I could probably count them on one hand. I think it is a credit to Lance and Brock that this comunity is as strong as it is. I've been to other forums for various things and I can tell you that there are flame wars that happen that leave everyone feeling burnt.

JBreault38840.5500925926

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

I just want to make something clear here, i'm not mad at Lance for taking this decision, i feel Lance did what he had to do considering what the situation was, if only one thing i could have done, it would have been to tell Jeff that i still respect him as a luthier and as a business man, it just made me sad when i saw that result at the end of that day but i understand fully that Lance had no choice and it shows how dedicated he is to keep this community in the right path so to speak.

Lance, I feel for you, man.

Thanks for all you do.

Charlie, I appreciate your heartfelt thoughts as well.

Long live the OLF!!!
Todd Rose38840.6090046296

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Lance,

I appreciate your integrity as proven by your actions. I'm sure it was a very difficult decision to come to, but hard as it must have been, I think it was the right thing to do.

I suspect that Jeff is a fine person in his own right, but in my experience, fine people don't always do fine things.

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Charlie,

It's good that you told us what Jeff did for you, because it casts him in a much better light. It was a private kindness from which, obviously, he had no expectation of personal gain. It also probably cost him more than pocket change to do that.

I think Jeff made some very valid points in his "spamming" response, and I would have expected, and even encouraged, him to respond when his business was mentioned specifically (I, too, had no idea to whom people were referring until then). His missive, though, crossed the line into vitriolic abuse. Anger is no excuse for personal attacks in a situation like this, and I, frankly, was shocked at some of the things he wrote.

Running a business can often be extremely frustrating, but as a businessman, Jeff should know that public perception is everything. He could have cleared up everything by simply pointing out that some of the folks in the thread couldn't have been talking about him (because of the reasons he did state), and by apologizing to those whom he had annoyed. It's as simple as that; and it would have made him look reasonable and professional. He took a different approach.

Every business should be able to stand up to (and expect) public scrutiny and questions about its practices. The first question we all should ask of any business with which we deal is, "is this legal?" If the answer is not a simple "yes," said business will have to expect negative comments. Now, the question, "is this moral?" is another thing we should ask, too, and Charlie, from what you've written there certainly seems to be a possible "yes" where Jeff is concerned, and perhaps those who have the necessary fortitude should join in the "good fight" to have the laws changed. Until then, I have to stick with the letter of the law.

Wow, I must have missed all that! I just read everything and feel that Lance did the right thing. I am a member of a few forums and they generally make me nauseous. This is always the "feel good" one. It is also the only one that I have direct communication with the members. I always comment to my wife that while the idiots on another forum are insulting each other it is nice to go to this forum and see someones new guitar or baby and congratulate them. It is very family and I love being a part of it. I wish some of the other forums had someone of Lance's character to step in and blow the whistle on something.
Thanks for all your efforts!!
Evan
By the way Hesh rocks!!!!!

_________________
http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

Interestingly enough, I was referring to SPAM in general on the thread, as I felt most were, as well the means and methods of obtaining membership lists etc. etc. I have nor claimed to have ever received one from this company in question.

Businesses have to have thicker skin kind of like a movie star or politician, if you provide goods and service at a fee to the public and are "out there" then you are going to be praised and criticized to extremes one time or the other. My approach has always been to take the "high ground" and never respond until the anger has passed in my business dealings. I was an elected official here in Texas for a number of years in a wealthy town with alot of high maintenance folks. People would say all kinds of nasty things that were not true about me from time to time and sometimes it would get under your skin a little.

I think some frictions already existed amongst a few on the thread and some of us were unaware of that fact. I guess he felt provoked and responded in anger. I think the thread in general was ok, but I didnt think it a good idea to name names in a negative way on either side of the issue.

and I still love all of you

Thanks

Mike

Since I have been here I can count on just more than half of the fingers on one hand the posts that have gotten out of hand. For thoses of us that are or were members of other forums, it would be hard pressed to say the same anywhere else

My hand goes out to Lance for a great job MichaelP38840.6975

Well - what I guess one of the things I was trying to demonstrate was that ->this kind person wont be here the next time a young guy comes along with dreams of shavings and dust, {and mabye a sadsack story} .
Perhaps others will do for that fellow.
I read that post, {and perhaps from a position of a friend to Jeff} see where he could feel attacked!
I cant see how someone can read it from Jeffs perspective and not see that, but if you cant, you cant I guess.
Many people chimed in with thier own spam stories {having nothing to do with Jeff} after the initial gripes,{which were indeed aimed at him, and not so subtly that he wouldnt notice either} and I believe that Jeff felt as though it was all personally directed at him as it rolled on, in some cases mistakenly so, its just too bad.
I cant prove it was definitely an attempt at provocation, but it appears that way to me.
A few people knew darn well who they were talking about, and although I harbor no ill feelings toward them, its clear that they really despise Jeff.
The last thread b4 this that had to be shut down started with an attack on Jeff and his business as well.
Its uncanny that these people never campained against Jeff whilst he was a sponsor here.
Out of respect for Lance I suppose, mabye thier "righteous indignation" just built up over time, only they know.
I dont mean to rehash anything, or get another roaring debate or cause any bad feelings, and I know for a fact that Jeff wouldnt have even wanted me to tell of what he had done for me, because he is an extremely modest guy,
   One who can only be pushed so far, Im afraid, though.
I know he got angry and really went after peoples character, which ovbviously is unacceptable here, but I respect the fact that he will defend himself when provoked excessively.
Lance I feel that you have the right to do anything you like here - who doesnt feel that way? I mean you are the Big Kahuna after all, its your show, and I respect your decision.
& I respect you for offering a place like this where I can learn and possibly avoid making more mistakes than I have to during my learning curve.
Your decision will stand, Im not asking you to reconsider, or criticizing you or the OLF.
IMO I dont think Jeff wanted to get angry with anyone. It is what it is now.
I just wanted to be ONE guy who said "hey - stop picking on my buddy - man". I still dont think he deserves it,
and now I have done that so. Thanks for listening.
Cheers
Charliewood

As far as the specific words,
spamming
and
con
and what have you; I was going by memory - obviously it failed me,
but there is plenty of negative sentiment towards Jeff and his business in that thread - take your pick of which words, phrases, and insinuations.


Now, who wants to hear about the new tools I bought today, they are so nice it makes me feel a bit queazy. charliewood38840.7340509259

Lance, it's a tough row you hoe. You're doing a great job. Best to have a light hammer and use it judiciously...

Good on ya.

p.s. Dang, was gone for a week and missed the whole shenanigans...

I also missed this whole mess but in the past, there have been situations of bickering and people leaving the site with hard feelings and I believe they ended up returning. Sadly, Lance really didn't hav ea choice (from what I am reading) as if he lets this continue, this forum will just become a mess of arguing and crying and fighting. This forum is avaluable resource but Lance shouldn't have to be the babysiter for us hundred children. If people feel attacked and want to confront someone, this would be best served via the messenger feature or email to keep th eissue from escalating and having people have to take sides. We are all adults and should act as such.

In the past there have been arguments over slow delivery of suppliers, "questionable pictures", etc. I am amazed we haven't yet had a argument over the religious tone many posts have but thats America and we have a choice to post or not post our feelings about any issue here. I personally try to stay out of it all as I am from the school of thought that I do not have to read what offends me and I surely do not have to respond.

PS - I am not taking a side here but its happened before and I am sure it will happen again.

charliewood,

good on you too, doing what you feel is right.

And I want to hear about them tools! I know what you mean about nice tools making you feel queasy. My first table saw did that for me, bought late last year after having lusted for one for decades. Some of the proceeds from my dad's estate (he died last year) financed most of my shop, which is now stocked with "dream" tools. Nothing of fine quality, but I feel like my dad bought them for me. With that association between my dad and my tools, it feels extra good whenever I use them.

So whadjya get?

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I missed all the hoo-haa, can't say I'm sorry.

Good on ya Charliewood mate. It's always good to see a bloke standing up for his mates. It speaks highly of you.

Didn't like what that bloke said 'bout our Hesh tho

[QUOTE=burbank] charliewood,

good on you too, doing what you feel is right.

And I want to hear about them tools! I know what you mean about nice tools making you feel queasy. My first table saw did that for me, bought late last year after having lusted for one for decades. Some of the proceeds from my dad's estate (he died last year) financed most of my shop, which is now stocked with "dream" tools. Nothing of fine quality, but I feel like my dad bought them for me. With that association between my dad and my tools, it feels extra good whenever I use them.

So whadjya get?[/QUOTE]
I started another tread called new toys - photos~!
cheers
C

I usually read the first few posts on a new thread, just to see where it would go.

I looked at the first few post on that thread and thought to myself that this could get out of hand and left it, didn't even look at it again till this thread was created.

It's always up to us as members to make it what it is.

In my opinion, everyone who posted on that thread is at fault, I mean the thread was started as a rant, can it ever be anything better than that? It's fine to rand, maybe it's just another thing to be empathetic and let it die. We've all experience similar agitation in life, it all depends on how we deal with it.

Even me posting to this tread is partially against my own personal code, but I guess these codes are broken at times.

Just my 2 cents.Rod True38841.4468171296

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