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| Need help w/Binding - Lance please read http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6912 |
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| Author: | JeremiahB. [ Mon May 29, 2006 10:51 am ] |
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Okay, I'm at my wit's end here. I'm trying to bind two guitars that I'm working on with the tape and ca method which means I'm taping the binding and purfling on and then flooding it with thin ca. By the way, I'm using plastic purfling, not fiber, and ivoroid binding. The first attempt produced very poor results with the binding being glued adequately in some spots but pulling away in other spots while being scraped flush. The ca seemed to pool up on top of the binding and purfling and not seep in. I posted before with this problem and it was suggested that I scuff sand the bindings and purflings to remove the shiny surface and to remove any oils that may be on them from being cut into strips. Well I did as suggested and still I get the same results. The ca just doesn't want to wick in. I thought that this had worked but one section pulled away and now I'm worried that the binding and purfling in its entirety may only be held on by a small bead of ca at the top which didn't get scraped away. I'm sure once humidity starts working on the guitar that it will pull away though. So I'm wondering if there is anymore advice that anyone has. I've wondered if maybe fiber purfling would work better. Will the ca saturate the fiber purfling and seep into the joint securing the binding and purfling? Any suggestions by anyone who uses this method would be greatly appreciated. By the way, I know that a lot of you use Duco or some other cement but I would rather not have to deal with swelling that goes on when using those types of adhesives. Not yet anyway. Has anyone used the new binding adhesive from LMI. Does it cause swelling? Thanks. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Mon May 29, 2006 11:14 am ] |
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Yeah, use duco or weldon for plastic. Quickly wipe it with acetone first (it will get a little tacky when you do this) and then put glue in the channels about 6 - 8" ahead of your work. Place it tight, tape it, and wipe off the excess. Work, INTO the waist. Come at the low point of the waist from both sides, not "through" the waist -- that is a little bit prone to pulling the binding loose in the shallow parts of the waist. For your butt joint after you have it in place you can take a small jar of acetone and put some binding scraps in it. In several hours these will dilute to a gooey paste. You can stuff this in any cracks and over any visible joints and they will melt away and be completely invisible. (But this is not an excuse to do sloppy work, try to get the joint as tight as you can.) Plastic is pretty easy. Don't despair. |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Mon May 29, 2006 11:18 am ] |
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I use titebomd for wood and fiber, and duco for plastic. I have used CA for binding repair, and for filling any gaps (tiny gaps) that I find while inspecting with a magnafier. Sometimes the CA wicks into the wood so much that the joint gets starved. Have you sealed the mortice before glueing? Al |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Mon May 29, 2006 12:22 pm ] |
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I use plastic binding a lot. And I use the CA wick method. My most recent guitar had 3 purfling lines, a teflon strip for shell, and the binding. The key is to get it really tight. I use Stew Mac binding tape. Also at tight spots at the waist, I use disposible surgical glove and push the binding in tight with my finger and hold it. Then, while holding tight i wick in the CA and then spray with accelerator. If my glove gets glued to the binding, so what, just peel it off and then scrape it. I have the entire guitar taped pretty tight but use pressure with my finger to really make it tight as I glue it. Also, remember to pull for outside curve and push in for inside curve. The guitar will be a MESS!!!! once glued. The tape absorbs the glue and gets stuck, but it all scrapes off and cleans up. ONE KEY POINT. I coat the entire top with a vinyl sealer 1st. (You can use laquer) This prevent the CA from staining the top Does this make sense. Also use thin superglue. |
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| Author: | JeremiahB. [ Mon May 29, 2006 10:11 pm ] |
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I have done all of the above, making sure the joint is tight, channels are clean, using water thin ca, etc. but like I said, it seems that the ca just pools up and doesn't wick in. Well, at least it doesn't wick in adequately enough to secure the binding. But as I asked in my original question, would fiber purfling work better since it is porous and would allow the ca to wick in better? |
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| Author: | rich altieri [ Mon May 29, 2006 11:18 pm ] |
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Be careful when wicking cyano into bindings. I made a mess of one build because I didn't realize the water thin cyano had seeped beyond the bindings and onto the inside of the box. Made a mess of the sides and even soundboard. It will make its way in beyond the kerf linings if even the slightest gaps. In my case, was installing a pretty wide binding and routing the channels for top and back explosed some of the cuts where the lining is kerfed. Never again. Now I use the weld on for plastic and tightbond for wood bindings. |
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| Author: | csullivan [ Mon May 29, 2006 11:47 pm ] |
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I have used all the above adhesives, depending on the material. Each has its own problems. When using CA I have had the greatest success using the medium viscosity and rather than trying to wick it in, I lay a bead in the channel for 4 or 5 inches, tape it, pull the binding back slightly, lay in the next bead, tape it, and so on. Whenever I can, however, I use either the LMI binding cement for plastics, or the LMI white instrument glue for wood (it tacks up fairly quickly). Just my personal experience. Craig S. |
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| Author: | JeremiahB. [ Mon May 29, 2006 11:47 pm ] |
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Well, I'm not having that problem. I can't even get it to wick in to the binding, much less past it and into the box. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Tue May 30, 2006 1:47 am ] |
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We use CA only and do both wood and plastic. Problems found are usually due to the channel or the side not clean. Additionaly to binding or purfeling may not sit in square. We don't even tape it. We just go slow, and hold it tight with pressure both downward and into channel. The very thin CA fills in and hardens very quick. |
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| Author: | L. Presnall [ Tue May 30, 2006 3:06 am ] |
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I bet it's old CA...try putting a drop or two on a scrap and hitting it with accelerator. It should kick like, RIGHT NOW! If not, it's probably good for gluing Barbie parts back together, but not for a guitar! |
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| Author: | tl507362 [ Tue May 30, 2006 3:17 am ] |
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I've never used plastic on bindings, but it sounds like CA will work. I've used the CA binding on 2 instruments so far, and have had no problems. The only thing I would suggest is to use medium viscocity CA and put it in the channel first, then use a quick grip clamp to clamp the binding tight and hit with accelerator. This way ur hands and fingers don't get tired 
Tracy |
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| Author: | JeremiahB. [ Tue May 30, 2006 4:26 am ] |
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Nope, it's not old. It kicks plenty fast, like 2-3 seconds. It's just not wicking into the joint to kick. I've tried this with about 2 or 3 different brands of water thin CA and always the same result. Yeah, I know that I could use medium viscosity and put the CA in the channel but there isn't much room for error or working time. And no matter how many flawless dry runs I do, my hands start shaking more when it's the real deal. |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Tue May 30, 2006 4:49 am ] |
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Something is odd. I have wicked superglue into the last 6 guitars. For bindings and purflings with no problem. 5 layers on the top with 3 purfling lines, 1 teflon strip and the binding and it has worked without a hitch. I flood the stuff. I makes a big crust mess, but is just sand it clean |
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| Author: | JeremiahB. [ Tue May 30, 2006 5:41 am ] |
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Did you use plastic or fiber purflings? |
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| Author: | Terry Stowell [ Tue May 30, 2006 5:52 am ] |
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are you accelerating a surface BEFORE applying glue? That would seal the top surface first before it could even wick down below the surface |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Tue May 30, 2006 6:26 am ] |
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i use stew mac plastic bindings. I tape/hold the bindings tight. Add the glue and then accelerate after while holding pressure |
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