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Luthier Wages
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=695		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  woodyw [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:43 pm ]
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Hello Everyone,

I am new to the forum, and I play electric and acoustic guitar. I have a Guild D40, made in the USA. Fender bought Guild and Tacoma Guitars, and it looks like the new Guilds will be made in China, which kind of ticks me off.

I am a mechanical engineer and retirement is on the horizon. I really love guitars, and I'm thinking about luthier classes. I would like an idea of the wages a "real" luthier makes. By "real" I mean someone that makes guitars from start to finish, not someone that pushes buttons on a CNC machine.

What does a typical luthier make after one year, 5 years, as an apprentice, as a master luthier, etc.? I know this can depend on a lot of factors just like any occupation, but what are some ballpark ranges? I do not expect to retire rich. It would be nice to have a craft since giggin is for the young.

Another question: Does anyone know of acoustic computer modelling programs for designing guitars. I am pretty adept with CAD and mechanical design.   

thanks

Author:  Dickey [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:49 pm ]
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Sorry Woody, we all do it for fun, not money....

Hopefully you have a great retirement and luthing money is just icing on the cake....
Author:  woodyw [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:29 pm ]
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Hi Dicky,

You should hear what the guitar buyers have to say about luthier wages: Moan and groan But in the end, they're happy to have a custom made instrument.

It would be reasonable to expect at least highly skilled craft labor rates for a master luthier. That would equate to something between $17/hr and $30/hr. The best of the best would probably get more.

My 2cents.woodyw38364.8961689815
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:31 pm ]
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Some luthiers get $50K per guitar, some are lucky to give them away. It depends a lot upon the quality of workmanship, tone and the luthier's reputation. Mega star endorsements are almost a necessity to demand serious money for your guitar. If you go the wholesale route via guitar dealers they often want a 30% - 50% discount off of retail. Selling on commision is another alternative with a 20% - 30% fee to the dealer.

It's not a profession to delve into with high hopes of striking it rich. Most of us built instruments for the love of it and just maybe we will get lucky before we're dead.
Author:  woodyw [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:41 pm ]
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Sounds like I'll be better off playing in coffee shops with a tin cup on the table.

I won't be striking it rich doing it that way either. At least I'll get a free cup of coffee.
Author:  Dickey [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:58 pm ]
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A range for a basic handmade just for guys on this forum is 2 grand up to 4 grand. Two hundred hours is bantied about for total time to build a good guitar with finish. Costs are about six to eight hundred if you throw in a case, the rest is labor.

1300 to 3300 is the range, divide by 200 and you get... $6.50 an hour to $16.50 an hour. I guess once you have your shop completely set up and jigged up and stocked up, you could make guitars faster, that would effectively give you a raise if you can sell all you make yourself.
Author:  stan thomison [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:30 pm ]
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Like alot of the guys have said it may not work out as a big time wage thing. It takes time to get what is most nessessary, a good reputation and endorsements. Their are some great luthiers here and can sell for more than some of the rest of us. Some just love the craft and getting to build some instruments and maybe sell them for not big profit is ok too. To get where your thinking is not unreasonable, but may take along time to get there. You can go to school and learn the from a range of knowing the basics, then going home and just jumping in, to the guy who goes for 6 months or more to do it, and come out with very good knowledge. Then an apprencticeship is a great thing in getting to work for others that are truly craftsman. Not much pay there, but as they say in commercials "priceless" I guess alot depends on age (when retired) knowledge of woodworking and tools, but most of all not worry about the money, and just doing it for the love of it and desire to build a great guitar. If one gets worried about the pay off first, and the skill and love of it second, then things don't start off well from the start. I hope you do jump into it and work at it until you retire. Take some seminars, take vacation and go to school or just read, hang out here, and start going for it. When you do, and the bug hits, you will be in it for the right reason and then a few years experience and hopefully a second sucessful career. Wish you well and hope see more of you here
Author:  Dickey [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:46 pm ]
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Stan, that was very well put. I am proud to be your friend, especially this week of all weeks oh "Luthier of the Week." Oh, check out my new quote from another Okie. I've loved this guy since I was a kid, watching him swing a rope around and tell stories I didn't understand.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:22 pm ]
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The best way to make a small fortune in lutherie is to start with a large one.   
Author:  Ron Priest [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:22 pm ]
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You mean you can actually make money at guitarmaking? Your not saying that I should sell my custom made guitars are you? I don't have to keep spending and spending and occasionaly charging up parts?? Now I am
confused. I thought luthiering was another name for money pit!!
As soon as you can find someone to buy a guitar from you,your in business. Until that time you can enjoy the best hobby around. I think I'm making .50/hour or is that paying out that much? But its certainly is enjoyable! Welcome to the forum. Gab acoffee and read and read and post as well. Have a great day.
Author:  Jason [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:45 pm ]
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Go work for Martin or Taylor ;) 10 bucks an hour. WOOO Strikin it rich. I actually have no idea what the entry level guys at the factories make but I'd assume it's in that ballpark.
I'm taking my sweet time getting into this but I hope to be able to support myself doing it at some point.. I have a 20-30 year headstart on a lot of you so I figure if I'm real stubborn and take advantage of things like the rice and beans recipe Bruce gave us I just might make it. Even the poverty stricken can afford beans.

When someone says you can't do it.. tell them to look at Bob Taylor and Jean Larrivee.. they both did it and they aren't old money like Martin.. Even more recently, Chris Gryphon, the owner of Garrison Guitars. Here's a little blurb on Garrison:
"In 1993, at the ripe old age of 19, Chris started his first company in St. John’s, Newfoundland, Canada. Griffiths Guitar Works had a simple mission, to defy the recession by selling high end, custom built acoustic and electric guitars at a time when his home province was pegged as the poorest in Canada. Unbelievably, it worked! Griffiths Guitar Works has grown from a one-man repair shop to the largest custom guitar store in Atlantic Canada."

He went on to also create Garrison Guitars in 2001 so it's all possible
Author:  Jason [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:51 pm ]
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Also Woody, you are correct. Guild guitars will be built in China at a new fender plant in the near future if they aren't already.

Author:  woodyw [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:56 pm ]
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It sounds like guitar building would become like my barbecue hobby website for coupon clippers:

my barbecue site

I can be one of the best at anything I do if I put enough time into it.

Maybe my time would be better spent playing my guitars:

my music site

There's another labor of love, and a sum of money that gets smaller.

----------------------

Since I play guitar and I have a mechanical engineering background, I could probably give some good tips from the customer side.

One of my biggest gripes is about the dimensional instability that most guitar necks have. Even with a good truss rod system there are still problems -- my Guild neck gets a twist in it sometimes. Might I suggest a needle thrust bearing under the adjustment screw head, and square threads in the coupling?

There really is a lot of torque on a guitar neck coming from the strings, and they are all pulling with a different tension, the 1st string with the least and the 6th string with the most. Over time that will result in a twisting deformation.

Then the neck joint itself is under all types of stress. I would never tie a neck strap to the neck if I could avoid it.

Ultimately all guitars are headed for the graveyard unless a good luthier can resurrect them.
woodyw38365.268900463
Author:  Matt Gage [ Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:41 pm ]
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Gage Guitars38365.8135416667
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:16 am ]
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There are 260 work days in the year. Assumming you make up your sick and vacation days on the weekends, we'll leave it at 260 days. 260 x 8hrs = 2080 hours in a year. If it takes you 80 hours to build a guitar, (That's fast), You can complete 26 guitars a year. Most luthiers with a good but modest reputation can sell an instrument for an average of $3000. Average material cost of a guitar is about $350. (based on the price of LMIs kit of parts. If you work at it you can get that lower but it's hard). $3000 - $350 = $2650. $2650 x 26 guitars = $68,900 per year. Now you have to deduct for overhead ( insurance, tools, rent on shop). I have no idea what those costs would be.

If you are starting out, you will be very lucky to sell 12 guitars a year. So $34,450 a year is more likely. If you have a good pension, lutherie isn't a bad retirement.
Don't expect to support yourself, however.
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:05 am ]
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Woody,
When I read the first few posts, I couldn't make up my mind whether I got the biggest kick out of
a) How shocked I was at the comment about guitarists thinking luthiers were overpayed,
or
b) About the irony of you wanting to know how much "real" luthiers were payed, not the kind that push buttons on a cnc, followed by wanting to know about computer modeling software to design guitars. Which in my mind, created the logical first step toward pushing those cnc buttons!

I apologize, I had to laugh. But mostly at the wage thing. I'm lucky to make minimum wage on the guitars I sell. Very lucky!

Do you have a real name? It's going to get confusing for us because Bob Cefalu's nickname is "Woody" too..... along with The Zootman.Don W38365.380625
Author:  Jeff Doty [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:13 am ]
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I don't know the answers, but I think it must all be about looks! Not the looks of your guitar, but YOUR looks!

Work more toward looking like this guy for success!
Now, where do I get a Zorro hat?..........

Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:51 am ]
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Look like who, Homer Simpson?   
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:16 am ]
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Sell my guitars! You mean let someone else get their hands on my precious instruments. I sweated blood in building them and you want me to SELL them? You mean prise them from my stiff dead fingers. My wife complains that I've already taken over one room as a workshop and, as my first son has left home, I now have his room to store my 14 guitars (10 guitars and 1 lute that I have built, 3 Vintage Martins). As there are more under construction does anyone know how I can get our second son to move out so that I can have his room to house them? Sell guitars, preposterous idea!

Colin
Author:  stan thomison [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:36 am ]
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Bruce I also enjoy the wisdoms of Will Rogers. He is from Claremore OK, which is about 25 miles from here. Also home of Patti Paige(sp might be page not sure) there. Going to work on Aaron guitar in next couple of days again, by setting up and doing rosette. Just thought let you know
Author:  Skip Beach [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:37 am ]
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Here's a true little story:

My good friend, Wm. Chapman, built my first custom guitar in 1981. He was just starting out back then & I comissioned his fourth instrument. At the urging of my wife & I, he decided to make a go at being a full-time, career luthier - building both acoustic & electrics. Now this boy has more artistic sense than anyone else I've ever known. He was a cabinetmaker in his previous career so he had a genuine feel for wood & copious technical skills.

To make ends meet while searching for comissions, he started doing repair work for most of the better music stores in the region.

He's still doing mostly repairs to this day & even as talented & skilled as he is, can't charge enough for building instruments to be able to afford the time away from the better-paying repair work.

God knows, the world needs good honest guitar repairmen but I just hate to see his more creative potential take such a back seat. I can't help but think of the guitars he could have made.

Anyone who balks at what a luthier truly feels is a fair price for an instrument, is just wrong.

Skip

Author:  stan thomison [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:40 am ]
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Chris also attended Galloup School in MI
Author:  John How [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:45 am ]
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Sorry I don't mean to insult anyone but I would not even think about an hourly wage because a professional Luthier (at least an individual) has to be more of a salesman than anything else. Sure ya gotta be able to make great guitars but if ya can't sell'm ya don't have a wage.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:37 am ]
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[QUOTE=Jeff Doty] I don't know the answers, but I think it must all be about looks! Not the looks of your guitar, but YOUR looks!

Work more toward looking like this guy for success!
Now, where do I get a Zorro hat?..........

[/QUOTE]

Gotta mug Zorro or come to Siesta Key and Mug Esteban when he's hanging out at the bar.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:42 am ]
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To put it in twenty words or less...Build for Fun, Knowledge, Frustration, and Reward. Keep playing, get that regular pub gig... you will be happy! Forget MONEY!
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