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Has BMI gone crazy ?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6986		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  A Peebels [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:23 pm ]
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A couple of years ago a few local muusicians started getting togather at the local park and playing music for their own enjoyment. As time went by more people started showing up. Mostly musicians but also people who wanted to enjoy listening. There has never been a cover charge, or concessions, or even so much as a tip jar. Now the local BMI rep has shown up and announced that we are guilty of copyright infringement unless we buy a licence to perform copyrighted music.
Apparently you even need a licence to have a radio playing in a business.
What gives? Licencing fees for a small nightclub add up to thousands of dollars per year. Is the recording industry trying to destroy the market for new musicians?
We had a small guitar show yesterday, at the door was a sign "Jam session Cancelled" Yup BMI again.
I just don't understand it everything is about money. Whatever happened to just having fun.

Al
Author:  Mark Swanson [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:29 pm ]
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I would call your local park department and ask them about it. If there is no money involved and it's just a gathering of people for personal enjoyment I don't think they have any grounds to say squat. I think you should raise a fuss about it, get the parks people on your side and make some noise about it.
Author:  burbank [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:33 pm ]
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BMI is completely out of control. I've read several alarming accounts of small gatherings and clubs being shut down, even one that only allowed original performers' music to avoid hassles from BMI. They shut them down anyway because they wouldn't pay.

Ever wonder why you never hear the old "Happy Birthday" song sung to patrons in restaurants anymore? You guessed it.
Author:  A Peebels [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:39 pm ]
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According to BMI's website, it makes no difference if money is being made or not, if copyrighted music is being performed it's a violation. Their definition of performance is anything greater than a small group of family and freinds. It leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

Al
Author:  MATTRIX72 [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:39 pm ]
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Im not real familar with the BMI(bowel movement inc.) but i know that there are some people in life that are dead set on being a pest (to keep it PG-13) to everyone. Me being a old country boy in greer s.c. I can appreciate the joy of getting together with my dad & brother or even some friends just sitting on the portch and playing.I can`t beleave the nerve of some people ,when yall were playing obviously just for fun(no tip jar around)i honestly dont care for them....& i dont know what the BMI(butt munchin imbreads)are all about. hope i didnt affend you with my rambling,just thoughts leaking out of my head ....
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:40 pm ]
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Glad we don't have that here, there would be serious trouble in the bars!
Author:  A Peebels [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:43 pm ]
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Serge you do. I read tonight that the UK equivalent was actually trying to licence music stores because customers were playing copyrighted music.

Al
Author:  Jeff Doty [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:51 pm ]
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Al,

This is absolute nonsense. What can they do? Sue for copyright infringement or royalties? At a jam session? If this is true....I am dumbfounded. In America, land of the free....well.....maybe?

Truely sad.

Jeff
Author:  A Peebels [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:54 pm ]
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You know I fully understand the need to protect one's copyrighted material, but they are stomping on their own foot. If I don't get off of this subject I might burst a blood vessel. Ok Al change the subject. Oh! Oh! lets just all go down to the Pancake House and things will be better. I wonder if they had to buy a license?

Al
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:32 pm ]
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As someone who has 1 song published and recorded, I can tell you that I personally think it's just sad that the term musician has changed so dramatically over the years.

I couldn't care less if I get paid for my song or not.

On the grad scheme of things, these multi-million (if not billion) dollar bands and record companies are realy hurting themselves with a "restriction" like the "in the park" jam sessions. So what would they do, come by with court orders and sue everyone? HA. I would love to be part of a group to tell them to shove off. I bet Dylan would be right there with ya .

It realy is too bad that so many things come down to "money".

I know that this topic is just on the edge of the rules (sort of political isn't it) so lets try and be civilzed here (not that it has been crazy or anything). Just self policing.

Author:  John Mayes [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:34 pm ]
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I thought it is the venue/park/club/ect that is the one that has to have
the license, not the performer.
Author:  Michael McBroom [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:32 pm ]
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Shakespeare had it right.

Best,

Michael
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:33 pm ]
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Al we do have it? What a shock , i hope they hired some goons to come to the parks with them when they start annoying the good people with their stewpid laws them holes Boy o Boy, they have never seen a mad Bear me thinks!

Once, i started an argument with tobacco inspector after he had told me that the company i work for was sending double messages by putting non-smoking stickers all over the building while leaving the ashtrays in the hallways. My reply to that and hole was that his stewpid employer(our government) was doing the same dang thang when prohibiting smoking in public areas while allowing tobacco companies to freely sell their dope unpunished! Bang there ya go ya nuts!

15 minutes later, all the 5 janitors received a message on their 2 way radios to remove all the ashtrays everywhere
Author:  RussellR [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:26 pm ]
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Al

You are right the PRS over hear can be very active too. My experience of them is it depends on the individual officer they send out, some are doing the worthwhile task of insuring musicians get paid for their efforts, others take this too extremes.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:56 pm ]
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Yep, it's pretty idiotic, and from what I can see, record companies haven't been about protecting musicians much at all; what tiny percentage of these royalties ever get paid out to the musicians, eh? Seriously? If we ignore the top 5% of earners with maximum visibility? And if we're talking copyrights that have extended far, far beyond the original musician's lifetime, it gets insane (my take: 20 years is more than plenty for copyright protection on music for performance. The recordings are yours anyway, maybe extend that to 'musician's lifetime', but no further. There's a nice article by Janis Ian (several) on the state of downloading, and the recording industry from the perspective of a relatively small but still well-known artist:

http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.html

Over here, I believe the 'standard' practice is for the venue to file the setlist with the local equivalent of the BMI and they pay based on that. Either way, it's completely moronic. Still, it's pathetic and ridiculous. Seriously, over here, put MP3s of your own music up on your site, and you get BUMA/STREMA (organization that protects the rights of performers and composers) sending you email claiming you MUST register with them to ensure they will protect your copyright.

To which I say (something I cannot write in this forum).

They're also actively campaigning against 'illegally offered films and music'; they recently had to change it from 'illegal downloads', since fair use law here covers copying any copyrighten written or recorded material for home, non-commercial use. Which is great for me, since I don't have to feel like I'm breaking the law when I download something to find out if it's worth buying the album. 90% of the albums I've bought in the past two years have been thanks to downloads, either the fully legal kind (lots of live bootlegs on archive.org from trade-friendly bands), or the somewhat more dubious kind.
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:16 am ]
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Well said Mattia!
Author:  Don Williams [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:31 am ]
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I'm guessing that they really have absolutely no legal grounds, nor the will nor the resources to stop every person or small group in a park that wants to hang out and play music and sing songs. It's idiotic. Are they so money hungry that they would really go to court over Joe Schmo singing "Saturday in the Park" in the park? Come on...let's get real. They can't police everyone everywhere. It's a scare tactic, and they will learn eventually that it will come back to bite them in the butt. People will stop buying cd's in retaliation. They aren't protecting the artists nor the songwriters...just the machine that says you have to pay to play the songs.

I wonder if baseball parks have to pay to have someone sing the National Anthem????

Rod, there are no politics involved in this topic. It's a private organization and business that we're talkin about. It has nothing to do with any government. We can discuss it, and state our opinions, and still be nice and follow the forum rules.

Don Williams38873.4005555556
Author:  arvey [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:00 am ]
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Serge, I don't think we have that here, not for live music, Al seems to be talking about the UK and For those who don't know, CANADA IS A SEPARATE NATION I get my SOCAN check every now and then but anyone can perform my musuc as long as they give me credit. I have been surprised at times to hear songs of mine performed at things and people saying thigs like "this is an old song I heard at a summer camp once." I believe there are laws regarding playing of Canned music in businesses though.
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:40 am ]
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fiou! i was about to go to the barricades here, Thanks Richard! I can stay quiet now, sorry for the rant guys!
Author:  A Peebels [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:14 am ]
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Arvey Sorry "bout that I didn't mean to imply that I thought of Canada as the UK. It's just that your assosiation seems to be a little closer than ours, and I assumed (probably wrongly) that the same orginizations would be at both locations.

Al
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:51 am ]
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There is a big organization for "Christian and Worship" music out there, CCLI, and I believe that churchs have to pay for the right to use a published song. That stands true for Canada and the US I'm sure of and I would think that it's the same in Europe.

[quote=Arvey] I get my SOCAN check every now and then but anyone can perform my musuc as long as they give me credit. [/quote]

The credit is the SLOWCAN Cheque, but I know what you meen, I get the same thing.
Author:  charliewood [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:09 am ]
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This is all too insane - but ultimately its our own faults! -
Because for all the discussion on forums, in cafes, bars, etc, and what have you - those same people will {us/me } write paragraph after paragraph about it complaining - but hardly ever will they write to thier local papers, or more importantly thier/our regional and national representatives expressing our disgust about these and other issues.
Whether its because we dont have time, or are apathetic, or whather its just because we are not accustomed to being squeaky wheels,{whatever the reason} ...........we need to start sending the message of our displeasure to those who can actually effect necessary change we would like to see occur.
Im as much to blame as anyone - but I am honestly going to try and be more vocal from now on, because as everyone is saying, music should be free when played for the enjoyment of others without profit or personal gain.
Cheers
Charliewood
Author:  Michael Shaw [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:54 am ]
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USA land of the free. Yeah right...I'm going to Canada!
Author:  ecklesweb [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:15 am ]
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Anyone have a link to perhaps a local newspaper talking about a BMI or
other label rep shutting down jam sessions with threats of legal action?
Author:  mikev [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:28 am ]
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mattia, I wonder if your purchase due to download percentage is typical.. If so I would think the record companies would encourage you to sample more. But then they often don't see the whole picture, just the immediate cash "loss". Shame really..
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