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| Do luthiers make any money? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6987 |
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| Author: | FrankC [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:06 pm ] |
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Check out the bottom of the page this link takes you to. Its a list of young millionaires and wouldn't you know there is a luther on the list? Young Millionaires I guess you will still say he is a luthier even though its all fiberglass on the inside. Anyone ever play one? It almost looks like a puzzle since the sides slide under the premade bindings and into the neck and end blocks. for those that hate binding, i guess this would be the solution 
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| Author: | Dave White [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:27 pm ] |
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Good luck to him I say. But he had to stop being a luthier and become an entrepreneur ("The French don't have a word for entrepreneur" you know who) before he made the money 
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:43 pm ] |
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BWA HA HA HA HA HA ! ! ! ! 
Millionaire Luthier is an Oxymoron.... Although I guess it happens....rarely. This is NOT normal. |
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| Author: | arvey [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:02 am ] |
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There has been so much written about Garrison guitars and I am always getting asked about them and if my guitars are as good:) All the stores in the nearby city are pushing them so I've played them. They are nice guitars in the same way that Taylor and Martin's and Gibson's are "nice "guitars. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:17 am ] |
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Well, I can't say that I like them or dislike them, having never played them. Still, a fiberglass-inerds guitar just isn't a guitar to me. Call me old-fashioned, but it can't sound the same. And I like the way those old Martins sound. |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:32 am ] |
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To answer the original question...Not as much as we'd like. I've built full time as my only source of income for thirteen years and have had some years that were much better than others during that time. With my base price falling at $4200.00 and option charges taking the average price for my guitars a bit higher than that and a backlog of what has become about 135 guitars or three years or so, I've enjoyed a flattering acceptance and career so far. I've never placed and ad, printed brochures or even carried business cards and word of mouth has been a very powerful friend to me for whatever reason. So without getting into actual numbers of dollars made annually, it's pretty easy to see that there is money to be made if you stick with it and offer a good quality instrument. I have two kids in college and another three to put through and lutherie will be what gets it done as I continue. The highest number of guitars that I've been able to complete in a year has been 54 and the lowest was 13 during the year after my rotator cuff injury. With the shoulder on the mend, I'm back up to a work day that may result in 36 this year...if all goes as planned. I'm not one to pursue the "fame" that can be enjoyed by being seen on the pages of major publications and have a sort of antipathy for the political nature of journalism when it is of an industry specific focus and ad revenues are what determine the level of editorial consideration that a product or builder gets. Lots of ads=lots of dollars=lots of mention and coverage in the mags. Japan exhibits integrity in journalism as they offer their readers all of what is available regardless of whether or not the products are advertised in their publications. That's just one of the reasons I've never placed and ad here in the US and have placed full page ads in mags coming out of Tokyo. One good turn deserves another...in my opinion. Sorry for wandering. I was actually thinking of contacting one publication to appeal to them to stir some interest or awareness for the African guitar auction, but hate to waste the time in light of past experiences with them concerning projects of historical value that were overlooked in favor of something from a huge ad revenure generating builder. If anyone else would like to, that would be their own decision and a few people have expessed possible intention to do so. Concerning Garrison Guitars...The hook for Garrison guitars is their bracing matrix that incorporates the top and back bracing, side supports, neck and butt blocks and binding/pufling all in one plastic molded web that is very light and strong. The top, back and sides are CNC or CO2 laser cut and then inserted and epoxied into their respective pockets or shelves in the bracing web to form the closed box or body. I was at the NAMM show when Chris debuted the guitars and the innovative system a few years ago. They are nice for what they are and are very durable because of the support offeredby the integration of the whole component group by the web. That first year as I looked them over, the idea struck me as very brave and innovative, but the guitars as a whole were poorly made and the workmanship was very sloppy and playability was poor, but they've come a long way as they've refined their designs and tooling and production process. It's not the case anymore as their quality has improved by leaps and bounds to where they are now. I think they've also developed a more keen understanding of the level of quality of their competitors' guitars as well and this has pushed them to continue to tighten their quality control standards. They're not a hand crafted guitar or in the same camp as he instruments coming out of small shops or solo shops. I'd say they fall very close to low to mid level Takamines and Alvarez. Now, that's just my opinion and the opinions of others may be much higher or even lower of them overall. I've played about two dozen of them, examining them inside and out each time, and that's all I have to draw my conclusions from. Just remember that they are guitars with plastic bracing connected to plastic binding and purfling and plastic neck and tail blocks. Wood is the only thing that can deliver the resonance of wood and it reacts and responds differently as it is interfaced with other wood components much differently than plastic does or is able to. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:37 am ] |
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I have heard lots of good things about the Garrison Guitars. Matter of fact I was talking with a potentional client about them, he has a Dread by them. He sent me a sound clip and it really did sound good. I would suspect that there are good ones and bad ones, and a whole lot that are right down the middle. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:39 am ] |
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Here is a rough and dirty calculation I did in my head a couple of years ago. Jim Olson, who makes very nice guitars is a one man shop. He puts out about 60-75 guitars a year. His guitars (as sold by him) go for $8-10,000 so for simplicity lets say $8000. Now, this is not the most or least expensive out there as we know. So, simple math says 65 guitars x $8,000 per guitar = $520,000 in sales per year. Now, even if 75% of that gets lost to cost to build (shop costs, materials, tax prep, etc...) not that leaves the labour at $130,000 per year. Now at 65 guitars thats $2,166.67 per guitar and I bet with all the CNC he uses he has gotten the process down to about 40 hours or less per guitar, so that works out to $54.17/ hour. If you can get into the market and have a demand on your guitars and can sell for $5000 or more, I think you could make a very good living, but it certainly takes years to get there. That's my guess. |
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| Author: | L. Presnall [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:32 am ] |
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Anybody wanna buy a guitar? 
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:33 am ] |
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Rod, Now take into account the James Taylor models he's making....at three different levels....low end, higher end, and ultra-high end. The low end is equivalent to his base model at around 8, then he goes up into the fancy woods and such...and into the Brazilian. That said, Jim has a LOT of money invested in tooling, so his profit may not be what you think. Then again, I think most of us wish we had his success....and his clients. |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:45 am ] |
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Using Mr. Olson as an example is quite the misnomer though Rod as I'm sure you realize. Not only are his prices much higher than 95% off all luthiers, but his production is also higher than 99% of all solo luthiers due to his jigging/work ethic/CNC capabilities. Here is a little more realistic breakdown: Lets just take me for example. I'm decently well known. Not a bunch but enough. I make, by myself, full time, about 25 guitars a year. Most of my guitars I'm building now were ordered a couple years ago, when prices were lower and I'd say the average price of a guitar 'm building right now, ordered from back then, go for about $3,500. $3,500x25= $87,500 Less Materials (apx $30,000)= $57,500 Less disposable materials (apx $2,500) = $55,000 Less Overhead/rent/insurance/utlities (apx $10,000) = $45,000 Less Tax..ol uncle sam loves to get his (apx $15,000)= $30,000 Less reserve woods/tool upkeep/misc (apx $5,000) = $25,000 So lets say that covers everything (it does not as I have not deducted for advertising, and trips to festivals, ect) but for arguments sake lets say it does. Ok I work about 40-60 hours per week. So lets say it's 50 hours. Thats 200 hours a month and 2,400 hours a year. $25,000 divided by 2,400 hours means I get paid $10.41 per hour. My wife does not work and I have two kids. I don't care where you go in the US taking home $2,000 a month to support a family ain't much. And I have been doing this for 10 years now. You take any other profession with someone who has 10 years experience, doing an excellent job, decently well known in their field, and to tell them they are gonna make $10 an hour is laughable. It always drives me bonkers when people act like Luthiers make a lot of money. There are those out there that I'm sure do, but they are NOT the standard to base arguments off of. I just realized I could get a job being a mail man, which takes very little unskilled training, and almost double my salary.... |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:53 am ] |
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Well, I've tried only one Garrison to date. So keep that in mind for this review. I hated it. In my opinion they are too heavy. Plastic? It just ain't got no soul, man... I played it about half an hour and I had to use my pick hand to pry open my fretting hand, much as you would after having used a heavy framing hammer all day when you're not used to it... To me, the sound was thin and lifeless. Hardly any volume. I prefer my Takamine EN10-C twenty fold. And now I prefer my own build a hundred fold over the Takamine. However, Kevin did point out that the earlier models suffered from playability problems and over all quality. I do believe this Garrison was one of those earlier models. Good on Chris though for succeeding. Obviously, his guitars have mass appeal. He tried something innovative, backed it up with a good add campaign, improved on the original design and now he's a millionaire. I sure wish I had that kind of money, but I don't, so I just dream about the mother of all zoot piles that I'd have if I were rich... |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:04 am ] |
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I agree with you John, I sure that Jim is in the upper echelon of builders (I also bet there are those who make more than he does), I was just using him as an example. I believe that he is not the norm. But what is success anyway? I believe your successful because you are doing something that you have passion for and can feed your family. You may not be becoming a millionaire at it, but as the beatles always say "Money can't buy me love" So is it about the money? I hope not. There has to be more. Of course this is a topic which has been hashed out on all the guitar forums at least twice. |
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| Author: | Dave-SKG [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:05 am ] |
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John, Good Job...that's why I always tell people/luthiers know your "real" cost of building those guitars...you may be loosing money making them. I happen to be a CPA so I pay more attention to cost than most folks. As is true with other professions there is also a level of supply and demand, that if the demand is great enough, sales can be had at a premium. Luthiers like...Rebbecke, Fox, Somogyi, etc. Make a very good profit with little/no change in real cost. But this is due to having a supreme/superb reputation. Not all of us can ever, or will ever, achieve that. We are left with $10/hr... if healthy, smart, and a have a little luck.
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:17 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Rod True] I agree with you John, I sure that Jim is in the upper echelon of builders (I also bet there are those who make more than he does), I was just using him as an example. I believe that he is not the norm. But what is success anyway? I believe your successful because you are doing something that you have passion for and can feed your family. You may not be becoming a millionaire at it, but as the beatles always say "Money can't buy me love" So is it about the money? I hope not. There has to be more. Of course this is a topic which has been hashed out on all the guitar forums at least twice.[/QUOTE] No your absolutely right there are other benefits and rewards to my job, but the topic is "Do luthiers make any money?", and the answer is exactly what Kevin said. And sure the other benefits are nice, but there is no doubt I think we/I would want/deserve more money than we actually get. I know I would like to provide more than a lower middle class living for my family. In fact I feel quite discouraged lots of the time that I can't. And it also takes more than just years of experience building to be able to charge a lot for your guitars. Experience is very good, but there is also a large degree of luck. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:34 am ] |
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Being in the right place at the right time helps too. Not everyone will make it, and there are more of us who won't than will. I went into trying to make money just to supplement my income because of health insurance! I figured that selling one or two a year who vastly help. That was until it kept going up, along with my utilities, my property taxes, gasoline, etc etc. Now it will make an almost insignificant dent. It makes more sense to work OT than it does to build for money. Now it's just going to be a retirement business, if I can ever afford to retire. <cough>. But things change...so you never know. I'm not banking on it. |
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| Author: | harmonist34 [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:35 am ] |
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I have played two Garrison guitars that were outstanding values at $500. Much more lively and resonant than many of the chinese plywood boxes in the same ballpark. Do SOME luthiers make good money? Of course. Do ALL luthiers make good money? Of course not. Does THE AVERAGE luthier make good money? Good question! Andrew Wright Managua, Nicaragua |
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| Author: | arvey [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:42 am ] |
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[QUOTE=LanceK] I would suspect that there are good ones and bad ones, and a whole lot that are right down the middle. [/QUOTE] I have tried out a number of garrison guitars in the last few years and my experience has been that they seem to be quite consistant in sound and quality. They are "nice" but all sound the same nothing like a hand crafted guitar. I would agree that they sound kind of dead, no life, but with so little wood used what do you expect. Most people use them plugged in all the time mind you so the pickups make the difference. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:01 am ] |
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[QUOTE=John Mayes] Experience is very good, but there is also a large degree of luck. [/QUOTE] Certainly true. However I think there is an opportunity to manufacture a little luck. It strikes me that many solo builders could use a good dose of marketing strategy, advertising, and sales help. I think this would go a LONG LONG LONG way toward helping to keep the orders flowing and build the reputation so prices could continue and upward climb. Most engage in what I call "pot shot marketing". (This is not a critisism -- I think of it more as an unrealized opportunity, and it certainly is not intended for you John... I am just piggy backing on your comment about luck.) If you look at some of the builders out there that have "made it" you will find a lot of them have put a substantial amount of brainpower and investment into developing their awareness and honing their marketing skills. That seems to me to be as critical as having a great product. Having a good product simply isn't good enough. It is easy to get lost in the crowd. I know a few guys will tell you that they have never really done any marketing to speak of (i.e. Kevin) but this is a risky strategy, and Kevin starting doing this before there were so many people with a shingle out. I don't think that will work as well for newer builders just starting out. My take on the question of "can you make money at this" is sure.... if you can bottle water and sell it, you can make money at just about anything you set your mind to, but the reality is it will take a lot of work, dedication, and sacrifice before that happens. I applaud guys with the passion and drive to push through the lean years in hopes of reaching the day when they can support themselves doing this. |
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| Author: | Mario [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:21 am ] |
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Kevin points out: I'm not one to pursue the "fame" that can be enjoyed by being seen on the pages of major publications and have a sort of antipathy for the political nature of journalism when it is of an industry specific focus and ad revenues are what determine the level of editorial consideration that a product or builder gets. Lots of ads=lots of dollars=lots of mention and coverage in the Thank you oh-so-much for stating that so well. Seems some builders are out for nothing more than the 'fame and gratitude' part. And yes, it is fact that to get mentioned in the big publications, you need to advertise. I was contacted a few years ago by a writer for the "big one", who suggested that he "may be able" to convince the editor to do an full article on me. Hints were dropped that running a few large adds would help things along, and sure enough, without my even responding to him at that point, "offers" and price lists for advertising suddenly showed up in my mail box shortly after. They have carried great articles on great builders, and will again, but I read them all with a grain of salt. I never did buy an add, and never did get the article. In fact, when I stated that I wasn't going to buy an add, but can we talk of what they wanted for the article, all talks ceased. I've not bought an add ever, either. All word of mouth. The best salesman is a good product reflecting good value. back on subject.... 10 years of building, 7 professionally. I average around $12/hr. this year, with a high of around $20/hr. when the dollar exchange worked in my favor, and a low in the negative dollars per hour last year when a cluster f&^k of finish problems saw only 2 guitars actually built and shipped. But I'm dept-free, live in a nice home(paid for by my previous employment), live simply, and have no kids. Life is good.... |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:25 am ] |
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I think that Garrison guitars are made for the market they are intended for...I would rather have the market flooded with cheap guitars that are easy to sell against by pointing out that the bowl shaped back (in the case of Ovation) is fiberglass, or the bracing is all plastic (Garrison) than a guitar that looks good and touts that it is solid rosewood such as a Blue Ridge or other chinese import. There is a place in the market for guitars at all different price points and as long as they are playable, then that is a good thing. How many learned to play guitar on a Harmony, Silvertone or Kay? Today people still are buying those on eBay today. If I had not played a Yamaha nylon string guitar in the late 60's/early 70's I would not have been determined to build a "real" classical. Look at Martin's "high pressure laminate" guitars...they are built for a certain market pricepoint and for what they are are still a way for someone to be able to afford a Martin...what I do appreciate about those Martin's are the ones that dont pretend to be a rosewood back but rather are done in funky patterns such as the Felix. 
Regarding if a Luthier can make any money... John...thanks for the candid breakdown. What John alluded to but didnt say outright about Olsen is that no matter how high profile, well known name and high priced a luthier is, if he has a backlog of orders, those guitars that are on order were sold at a lower price. Robert Ruck has a 15 year backlog and is no longer taking orders. How much do you think he sold the next guitar he will finish, that was ordered years ago...his costs have gone up but he is still on the hook to build a top quality instrument for a locked in price so there is less and less profit in each older instrument. Add to that that his own instruments that others sell as used are directly competing with his ability to raise his current prices. I am am looking to buy a Ruck and get on his list (if it is open) do I pay 2006 prices when a dealer or individual has a 2001 model that is for sale a a price slightly less than current prices? If it were my choice I would build fulltime as I did at one time. For me I can not take the stress and uncertainty of having to buildup a backlog so for me if I have 2-3 instruments that are ordered ahead of what I have built then I am okay as I do not depend on guitarbuilding for my sole source of income. Even when I shift to fulltime when I retire it will still be only a portion of my income so the pressure will be less. I greatly admire the committment and determination shown by those that build fulltime. They are my role models and have my respect. For Chris I am sure that his goal was to manufacture guitars which is evident by the choices and approach he has taken. While I may never buy a Garrison, every instrument that makes it into someones hands that unlocks their interest in music is a good thing. |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:02 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Shawn] Robert Ruck has a 15 year backlog and is no longer taking orders. Add to that that his own instruments that others sell as used are directly competing with his ability to raise his current prices. I am am looking to buy a Ruck and get on his list (if it is open) do I pay 2006 prices when a dealer or individual has a 2001 model that is for sale a a price slightly less than current prices? [/QUOTE] Drifting a bit off-topic, but I thought I'd make a brief comment on this. Who knows, maybe one of us will be faced with the same dillema someday? Jeffrey Elliott, another well-known classical builder who has closed his waiting list, actively encourages owners of his guitars who are considering selling them to consult with him before selling, in case one of the people on his list would be willing to buy used rather than wait for a new one. This makes a certain amount of sense, I think. He's trying to do right by his customers and is obviously not worried about losing a few folks off his 10 year + waiting list. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:05 am ] |
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All I can say is that without my day job, I would never be building guitars. Hesh, I guess I fit in catagory #2 Full time day job, building part time, waiting list. I hope to build between 5-10 a year. Hopefully there will aways be someone to want one of my guitars. There is a guitar shop in town that will sell my guitars, but I haven't been able to make them one since I am backed up. I don't sell them for enough....around $2500 -$4000. I just want to cover may expenses. I have only been using high end zoot, waverlys etc. |
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