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HHG - Where?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7123		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Steve Saville [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:02 am ]
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I'm going to take the HHG plunge.
I bought the glue, scale, bottles and warmer. I'm about to start my next guitar.
I'd like to know what joints you guys consider essential for HHG.
What joints would be nice to do, and what joints you should not use HHG on.

What kind of working time do you have?
Do you need to clamp for 8-12 hours?
Thanks!
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:13 am ]
Post subject: 
I use HHG on my bridges, and a vacuum clamp, I leave it on for 10 minutes, remove, clean up the squeeze out then reclamp for another 45 minutes. I don't string it up until the next day.
I also like to use it on my top bracing, but don't always.
Author:  John Mayes [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:34 am ]
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I always use it on my bridges, top and back braces, top and back plate
joints, and tail/heel blocks. I use titebond for the rest.
Author:  RussellR [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:35 am ]
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At the moment

I use for all bracing, and plate joining as well as the bridge, it also makes a lot of sense to me to use it for joining the plates to the rim, but I'm still practicing, to get this fast and clean enough, so I currently use titebond for this.
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:42 am ]
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Steve,

Currently I use hhg for joining the top and back halves, all braces for the top and sides (including the bridge-plate and bridge), joining the sides to the neck and tail blocks, the neck scarfe joint and the stacked heel.

For everything else I use Titebond I, apart from the back reinforcement strip and heelcap where I use ca glue, the carbon fibre flying buttress joints where I use epoxy, and the rosette and side MoP dots where I use artists white pva glue. I've also been know to use double sided tape for the nut

If you are going for the "sound" then I would say "essentials" are joining the plates, braces and bridge. If you have a slick set-up like Mario then add joining the top/back to the side rim.

I asked before about the clamp times and "tradition" says 2-3 hours but others treat it similar to using other glues.

Frank Ford has this view on his wonderful web site Glue ChartDave White38882.4898263889
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:44 am ]
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I'd say until you get really used to using it, start by using it on top and back braces and the bridge and also in joining the plates. It's main advantage is in acoustically sensitive areas so these are the key ones. If you think you can work quickly enough then also use it to attach the top to the sides, but this is not so critical. Gel times for cleaning up will vary according to your own environmental conditions and whether you warmed the components first, but the times Lance give are pretty standard.

Colin
Author:  Steve Saville [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:46 am ]
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What is the working time? Is it about one minute or???
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:51 am ]
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[QUOTE=LanceK] I use HHG on my bridges, and a vacuum clamp, I leave it on for 10 minutes, remove, clean up the squeeze out then reclamp for another 45 minutes.[/QUOTE]
Lance,

I find this interesting as I have been pondering how best to clean up hhg when fitting the bridge. The importance with hhg as I understand it getting the clamping pressure on before the glue gels. After the 10 minutes and you have released the clamping pressure, how does the reclamping bit work as the glue will have gelled by then? So does the reclamping help as the glue dries out and "pulls" the pieces together?

Also in gluing the bridge with hhg, do you guys/galls just put the hhg on the bridge or on both bridge and top?
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Working time is again down to glue viscocity, environmental temperature, and whether you have warmed the components. The best guide is to practice and see how long you get with your conditions.

Hesh, my suggestion would be to stick to the plates, braces and bridge to start with until you become confident with the glue. Titebond will do a very good job on kerfing, HHG really has no great advantage, some might say a disadvantage as it is accoustically more opaque so will tend to isolate the top more and reduce pressure wave transmission to the sides (which are really only there to keep the top and back apart)

Colin
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:58 am ]
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I have been wondering how HHG is used to install the kerfed linings. This activity does not seem to be something that can be done fast enough to use HHG. Am I wrong? Hope so, let me know.[/QUOTE]

Hesh,

I think you can do this in a "steady as she goes" sort of way by gluing small sections and clamping and then repeat. You can keep the parts warm with a hairdrier and use a heated knife to introduce the next bit of hhg. I've seen similar ways described for joining tops/backs to the sides rather than Mario's "slam dunk" go-bar method. Not tried either myself.

I'm beginning to think that we in these modern times view hhg a little too clinically with precise temperatures etc. It's been used for hundreds of years in guitar/instrument making including times when digital thermometers and warming pots weren't invented. I think it's a bit like Alan C once described French polish as a "zen like" finishing technique. You learn by doing and experience a lot. Keeping the work environment and the pieces warm enough is important I think as well as having done enough dry runs and having everything on hand and prepared for the "slick" real thing.Dave White38882.5001851852
Author:  Marc [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:01 am ]
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I have been wondering how HHG is used to install the kerfed linings. This activity does not seem to be something that can be done fast enough to use HHG. Am I wrong? Hope so, let me know.[/QUOTE]

On my classical I raised the room temperature to 85+ degrees and heated the linings and the sides with a heat gun. It was uncomfortable but it gave me much more working time, also, I glued the linings using three or four sections.

I read somewhere that you can snake them on by glueing a short section then clamp, then glue a little more then clamp, using a pallete knife to get glue in the tight areas. I haven't tried that.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Essentially what everyone else said.

I use HHG on everything EXCEPT:
...gluing the FB to the neck. I use epoxy (Mario's tip) The water in HHG can cause a back bow in the neck. I know that one from personal experience.
...bindings and purflings...I use CA

I try to use 30-40 seconds as a guideline for open time

Hesh...on kerfed linings, I brush on glue on in sections on the sides and liner and clamp them as I traver around the perimeter
Author:  Shawn [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Marc...

So your goal for your classical to get it as warm as Andalucia, thus helping the gluing better and the sound to be more Spanish?

For my tops I do the tentelones with HHG and only have to press each in place a short time to get them to bond. For the lining at the back I use titebond only because the sides are already in place and it takes more time to position, glue and clamp.

All of my bracing is done with HHG.
Author:  MSpencer [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hesh, the cloth side strips, is this a new addition or have I missed this in your photo's?

Mike
White Oak, Texas
Author:  Marc [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Shawn] Marc...
For my tops I do the tentelones with HHG and only have to press each in place a short time to get them to bond. For the lining at the back I use titebond only because the sides are already in place and it takes more time to position, glue and clamp.

All of my bracing is done with HHG.[/QUOTE]

For me, since I didn't use tentelones, gluing the back was easier than the top. Once the back is fit it was just a matter of putting the glue on quickly then clamping, I could do that in under 2 minutes which was plenty of time with the room temperature up and the pieces heated.

Glueing the linings to the sides for the top was easy but gluing the sides to the top I found impossible with HHG because of excessive spring back I had in the sides, I had to go with titebond to have enough time to fit. I will use tentelones on my next guitar or get rid of the spring back somehow. So I have HHG everywhere except top to the sides (where I really wanted it).
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