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Binding & purfling question http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7211	Page 1 of 2

Author:	ms960 [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:16 am ]
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Hi all. I'm working on a Stew-Mac mahogany dread kit. It's my first kit. As some of you know, that kit comes with black plastic binding, and herringbone purfling. I can live with the herringbone purfling, but the black plastic binding does nothing for me. As it's my first kit, should I just not worry and use the plastic binding, or would it be a worthwhile investment (small as it is) to get wood binding? I suspect I will end up doing more building in the future and can be more choosy, but I reallly don't like the black plastic stuff. I was thinking EI rosewood binding -- how would that look? Thoughts and suggestions welcome!

Author:	RussellR [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:31 am ]
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I Think Eir would look nice, Two things that immeniately spring to mind, Are you equiped to bend the wooden bindings ? The other thing with rosewoods against a light coloured wood is that the resin can bleed and stain the light wood, so finishing may be a bit harder with the rosewood. This is not a huge issue and this can be handled, but thought I would mention it as I'm sure you have plenty of other challenges on your first build.RussellR38888.8141550926

Author:	peterm [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:33 am ]
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Wood binding its a lot nicer and definately will add to its value and looks. However beeing your first you also have to take in consideration the dificulty of bending and installing wood binding. Certainly not one of the most dificult parts of guitar building but definately a lot harder than plastic binding which is a lot easier and forgiving!! Maybe you can do it in Ivoroid or any other king of plastic binding...or just take your chances (its your fisrt anyway ) and try the wood. The folks here at the OLF will help in anyway we can. Good luck.

Author:	ms960 [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:53 am ]
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First, thanks for the thoughts and ideas. Things to think about. I do not have a way to bend the binding, so I'd have to have it bent by someone (or purchase it bent). If I went the plastic route, I'd probably chose black over ivoriod (just a personal preference). I would definitely prefer wood however, but the bending step presents a hurdle. Again, Thanks

Author:	peterm [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:01 pm ]
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You should check with John Hall at Blues Creek Guitars or BobC at rctonewoods.com, I'm sure one one them is able to sell you the bindings and bend them for you (for a small fee ) They are both sponsors here and willing to help! Don't let the binding intimidate you....if your heart is set on it, GO FOR IT....ask questions, take your time and you'll be fine! Besides, if you make a mistake you can always fix it and you'll learn from it!peterm38888.876099537

Author:	ms960 [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:07 pm ]
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Why didn't I think of asking John Hall? Great idea. I've spoken to him on a few occasions. I don't know BobC, but might fire off an email to him as well. Again, thanks much!

Author:	ms960 [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:26 pm ]
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Hesh, I am using a mold from John Hall. He just wrote back and suggested koa binding, and his price was good (but I need to find out if that includes the bending). Good idea on the tortoise. I have a guitar with flamed sycammore back/sides and tortoise binding, and it looks pretty sharp. I'll give that some thought as well. You guys are a great help! Thanks again.

Author:	Sam Price [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:48 pm ]
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My pal Martin has successfully bent binding material using a wallpaper steamer... I have the very same Stewmac kit, albeit rosewood/spruce bolt on neck...I am in the process of finding some ideal binding (I bought some ebony yesterday and am hoping to seek out some rosewood/sycamore) I HATE the herringbone pattern , I am sorry to say, I much prefer a plainer purfling design, in natural wood, again in rosewood/sycamore. I imagine it would be more of a challenge bending purfling due to the fact that it has to be bent "sideways" without the top face twisting...

Author:	ms960 [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:55 pm ]
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[QUOTE=ToddStock] I really like 'hog and curly maple...and I'm sure John can bend you up a nice set of bindings, as well as LMI. Might want to get them with the side purflings attached if you are going that route. StewMac binding tape works really well. [/QUOTE] That's beautiful. How can I get my mahogany to look like that?? Sam -- I agree about the herringbone. John Hall has some good prices on bent binding, so I'll probably go with him (thinking koa or maple). I think I'm going to chuck the herringbone purfling as well -- tone it down a bit, and maybe go with no purfling even. ms96038889.3313425926

Author:	LanceK [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:29 pm ]
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Super clean binding work is hard to accomplish, its also one area that can junk up a nice job otherwise. I used black plastic on my very first guitar, there were so many other hurtles to overcome, trying to bend, join and wrestle wood bindings was more than I was ready for. For me, bindings are the most time consuming part and most difficult to get right, and tight. Just my 2 cents, but I would use plastic for your first. When its all said and done, the fact that its plastic will mean a lot less if it looks great, if you use wood and its (less than perfect) you'll regret it.

Author:	Pwoolson [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:50 pm ]
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I agree with Lance. I've only done one with plastic (ivoroid) bindings and the task was MUCH easier. I'm a naturalist and simplist so I love the look of wood with a very small perfling line. I think binding is one of if not THE most important cosmetic thing on the guitar. And to get it perfect is quite the challenge. Even 5 years in I still struggle with every set of binding. But, that said, if it's wood you want, go for it. I did my first in wood and it came out fine. Just be prepared to have to work hard at getting it right. You might also buy a couple of extra pieces just in case.

Author:	JBreault [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:52 pm ]
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I'm with Hesh on using the tortose binding. However, I wouldn't use it with the herringbone...maybe a wbw purfling or bwb...JBreault38889.3982175926

Author:	ms960 [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am ]
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You guys raise a good point about the difficulty of wood binding. I'd rather my guitar look good with simple binding than mess it up trying to use more expensive binding. I'll reconsider my decision. I like the tortoise idea, or was thinking a creme binding with a very small black purfling.

Author:	Colin S [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:17 am ]
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I would seriously consider the tortoise especially as a partner to mahogany, I just had a look at my old Martin 00-18 and the tortoise just sets the mahogany off right. Colin

Author:	Dave Anderson [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:21 am ]
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On your first I would stick with the plastic. It is So much easier as others have said. After you gain a little expieriance,go for wood bindings. Oh,and Welcome to the OLF !

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:33 am ]
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On your first kit I too will tell you to stick with plastic bindings till you have learned to bend wood and make good clean butt and miter joints. I really would not even suggest you consider a side purfling on your first because most multi-line and single-line purfling available is either fiber or died maple and will require bending for side purfling. If you go with a side purfling you will need to bend it across its wide section for a side purfling. This is tricky unless it is pre-laminated to a binding that it can be bent with There are some plastic bindings out there that have plastic edge purfling. if you are intent on side purfling your first, let me recommend that you use one of these.MichaelP38889.4402893518

Author:	Sam Price [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:05 am ]
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I have plenty of scrap wood, and soon will have plenty of practice ebony to work on. I detest plastic so much, I am deterimined to have wood bindings on my build!! It reminds me of my first beater guitar and the Law of Diminishing Returns taking hold of my guitar taste... Ha, but I shall not boast too much...I may be making a help thread about wood bindings soon, and y'all will say, "I told you so!!!!!"

Author:	ms960 [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:09 am ]
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[QUOTE=ToddStock] The big difference in wood bindings is no waiting for the ivoroid or tortoise to shrink back after gluing, and the ability to use standard Titebond or LMI white without resorting to Mario's acetone trick. [/QUOTE] Is there an issue with tortoise binding shrinking after it's glued? What drama does that create and how is it prevented or fixed?

Author:	Mark Tripp [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:55 am ]
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As someone using both tortise and ivoroid bindings (almost) exclusively at this point in time, I can attest to the truth of what Todd says - I think you will see this with any celluloid binding. Not sure about "normal" plastic. When you apply the binding with an acetone or ketone (yuk!) based cement the binding swells. I've learned to cut my binding channel slightly deeper than the binding I am using. If the binding channel is just a few thousandths deeper the binding will shrink back, making a nice fit. A common mistake is to scrape the binding flush before it has finished the shrinking process, resulting in a sunken binding, not leveled with the sides. (Ask me how I know this.) I now let the adhesive dry at least eight hours, then remove the binding tape. This allows the adhesive to cure fully and the celluloid to outgas the acetone, which I believe is what causes the swelling in the first place. Then I do not touch the guitar for AT LEAST 72 hours. I know, you want to scrape that cement off and see your handywork. RESIST!!! After at least 72 hours you should be safe to scrape, as most of the shrinkage should be completed. -Mark

Author:	ms960 [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:30 am ]
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You guys are very convincing, and make a great argument against wood binding on my first guitar. I will probably go with tortoise binding and no purfling for this guitar. Simple as it may sound, I think it can still look decent (if I don't screw it up)! Thanks again!

Author:	John Lewis [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:42 am ]
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Hi- If you do use wooden bindings and you don't use John Hall or BobC then take a look at this guys Ebay store. I have bought from him before and he's a really good Ebay seller. He sells walnut, maple, zebrawood and rosewood dread pre-bent bindings. If it were me I would go with John Hall or BobC, but this is another option. Happy Building-

Author:	ms960 [ Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:21 am ]
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As much as I want to do wood binding, everyone's suggestions to start with plastic was heeded. I bought a set of tortoise binding from John Hall yesterday. Not my dream binding, but it should still look nice, if I don't hose the job. Thanks for the input and help!

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