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| Mixing Side & back woods? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7271 |
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| Author: | Kathy Matsushita [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:50 am ] |
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I have a question: Is it okay to have two different woods for the back and sides of a guitar? What happened was, I had intended to use a nice Malaysian blackwood set I have had for a couple of years, to build a Taylor 12 size (with a Venetian cutaway). In the process of trying to bend the cutaway side, I cracked (terribly -- not really fixable) the cutaway portion, even though I followed instructions I'd seen in various threads, thinned the cutaway portion, etc. It just would not bend without cracking (I was doing just the cutaway section by hand on an electric bender -- the rest I did with John Hall's non-cutaway bender). I really want to do the guitar with the beautiful Malaysian blackwood back (it has that orange sapwood striping in the center), but I can't afford to get another blackwood set for the sides. I have some Indian rosewood sides which are close to the same coloring as the blackwood, which I thought I might use (easier to bend, too). Are there any problems with mixing the two different woods? Will it hurt the tone? Thanks for any advice you can give me!!!! Kathy Matsushita |
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| Author: | drfuzz [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:55 am ] |
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I don't see how there could be any real effect other than cosmetic.... |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:18 am ] |
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HI Kathy There is going to be a difference in tone, as the east indian rosewood is less dense thann the blackwood, that said this may not be a bad thing at all, I have a friend locally who build as a hobby and I offer assistance where I can, he recently built one with a mahammer back and EIR sides, because he had trouble bending the mahammer and the end result was great. Both Blackwood and EIR are excellent tonally so mixed with your talent for building, I think the end result will be good. |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:42 am ] |
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Hi Kathy, Your website was an early inspiration for me when I first began building guitars. Glad to see you here at the OLF. I've never built with Malaysian blackwood, but I've heard that it can be difficult to bend. If that is the case, you might be better off using EIR for the sides. Garnet shellac will darken up the EIR nicely, and the different look might end up being negligible. From what I've heard and read, the sides don't appreciably affect tone. I'm reminded that Jose Ramirez has been using laminated sides on its 1a models for decades. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | MSpencer [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:03 am ] |
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Welcome to the OLF! Sounds fine to me Mike White Oak, Texas |
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| Author: | FrankC [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:49 am ] |
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Are you building this for yourself or to sell? if for yourself, why not go all out and go totally mismatched on the side? Maybe a wood that would almost match the sap section of the back? I know it sounds stupid but I have been thinking about doing something as silly as that. Didn't martin make a model that had half th eback and one side EIR and the other mahogany? I swear I saw that in the martin masterpieces book |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:56 am ] |
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Hi Kathy, Good to see you here again...I guess you're finally on vacation! I would call Allied (one of our fine sponsors here) and see if they happen to have an orphan set of sides that would match you back. They might sell you a set reasonably. If you can, post a pick of the back here. Maybe someone here has some wood that would match. You never know... |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:03 am ] |
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What about changing it to a florentine (pointed) cutaway? I was researching on how to do a florentine cutaway, and read once or twice that florentine cutaways often start as venetian. |
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| Author: | Don A [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:57 am ] |
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Howdy Kathy, glad to see you join us again.  As the other Don said, post a picture of the wood here if possible. I'm sure one of the sponsors or members can help you out. If not, as Jon suggests, sounds like a good time to try a custom cutaway. I've seen some other cutaways gone bad that end up being unique designs. Good luck and let us know what you come up with.
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| Author: | Kathy Matsushita [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:57 pm ] |
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Thanks to all who have responded to my question about mixing back and side woods --- I really appreciate all the help!!! The main thing I was concerned about was whether it would be structurally okay to mix the Malaysian blackwood with the East Indian rosewood, and whether the tone would suffer. From everyone's messages, it doesn't seem as if those would be problems --- that's a relief and an encouragement! I've decided to go with the rosewood --- partly because of cost, partly because I did find the blackwood really a lot harder to bend, but also partly because it kind of intrigues me now to see how the two woods would make it sound! It is just a guitar for me, so I don't have to worry about it, really, and I can afford to experiment with this. I've only done one cutaway (my Weird Classical), which was not quite as sharp as this one is; therefore, even with the easier-to-bend rosewood, I'm still a bit nervous about it. So what I did today was build this jig I saw somewhere here on the forum. I've already bent the waist (by hand), and am using a shorter (uke) heating blanket I had on hand. I'm attaching a photo of the jig, and also what my Malaysian blackwood back (not jointed yet) looks like: Again, thanks for all the help and encouragement!!! |
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| Author: | Kathy Matsushita [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:38 pm ] |
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Here (I hope) are the two photos of my cutaway bending jig (I'm not actually bending yet -- it's just to show how it all goes together) and my Malaysian blackwood back (not yet jointed): 
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:48 pm ] |
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Hi Kathy. One little "trick" I picked up while in the Somogyi class was to laminate the sides, on some of these tougher woods if you bend them down to about .04 and laminate them together with epoxy. From what I picked up from Ervin the sides are simply the "rim" that the vibrating plates attach too. Without going into too many specifics he wants the rim to be as absolutely solid as he can get it. With this being said, I wonder if you could call Todd and get a set of Malaysian blackwood sides that are too thin to be used on a set. Pretty wood BTW. Good luck. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:18 pm ] |
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Hi Kathy, we have corresponded a bit last year when i started! Looks like your wood is kind of brittle like the purple heart i used on my current build, to achieve bending with such woods, you gotta have high temperature, i could not advise you on what temp to reach with your wood but i know i had to reach 457 degrees farenheit to bend some purple heart and they were just bindings, not sides! Brock's advice sounds like the best approach in my opinion, let us know how it turns out for you please and thanks for sharing pics of another great jig! Serge |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:51 pm ] |
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Can I join the others in saying your site was a major inspiration to me. As far as putting different sides on your guitar, it will have absolutely no effect on the tone. Due to the curved nature of the sides they are not able to radiate any pressure waves, certainly not at the lower end of the range. The function of the sides is simply to hold the front and back apart the required distance. Many classical builders are now laminating very stiff sides. I personally wouldn't try to closely match the sides with EIR, it will never look quite the same I would use a different wood in the same colour pallette for a contast. As others have mentioned, go have a look at Howard Klepper's site to see some exciting possibilities. That said I would certainly see if any of the sponsors has a side set that could let you have, it's very rare that one of them doesn't come up trumps. Colin |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:06 pm ] |
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I liked Brocks suggestion...see if Allied has a set of "too thin" sides. That also could pass for some Madagascar Rosewood I've seen. Maybe someone has some orphan sides approximately that color. Still, I think your best bet is Allied, and then thin & laminate to your existing sides. |
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| Author: | Matt Gage [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:56 pm ] |
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Hi Kathy, Hey old friend... another inspiree here. Two thoughts I have are: when I break a side bending a venetian cutaway, I look to see if i can salvage the side by making it a florentine cutaway. Perhaps the break is in a convienent location? the other is to look for some of that 80`s Brazilian that has that same brownish tan color. it would look like a match and bend like butta. good to see you here again Matt |
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| Author: | tippie53 [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:57 pm ] |
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Kathy Another of your website junkies here. There are so many woods that you can use that may imitate your back plates. ZOOTIE WHERE ARE YOUUUU. Ok on a more serious note , yes you can mix woods and with a little creative staining you can get a good match or make a 35 style back using rosewood at the center. That way you have the color and wood tie in. Just a thought john hall |
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| Author: | old man [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:16 pm ] |
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That's a great idea, John. A back strip matching the sides would make it look like it was designed that way from the start. Ron |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:53 am ] |
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Hi Kathy, It has been a while since you dropped in. Good to have you with us again. I would say go for it 
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| Author: | Kathy Matsushita [ Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:46 am ] |
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Once again, thanks to all for your ideas! I think I'm going to still go for the Indian rosewood for the sides -- I'm attaching a photo of the two together -- it looks pretty close to me. The only difference would be that the rosewood doesn't have that really wide striping and is a little more pinkish. At any rate, I'm going to bend the rosewood sides and see then how it looks up against the blackwood; it couldn't hurt to try it! Brock and Don: The idea of laminating really thin sides sounds interesting -- how easy is it to epoxy the two sides together once they're both bent? Jon and Matt: Thanks for the suggestions about the Florentine --- however, I really do like the graceful curves of a Venetian cutaway shape so much better, as opposed to the "pointy" sharpness of a Florentine. But I do appreciate your ideas! John: Hi, pal! Thanks for the D35-style suggestion. However, if I did it that way, I'd lose my major reason for keeping the blackwood back, which is the neat sapwood strip down the middle!!! But I like the idea of it making the transition to the rosewood smoothly. Creative idea! 
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| Author: | tippie53 [ Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:56 am ] |
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KAthy If you join the back and cut the wedge with the sap showing then put EIR outside then also take a piece and replicate that on the headstock. Should tie in nicely john |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:46 am ] |
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Here would be another (more complicated) solution: Cut your remaining side into four pieces, use two pieces on each side with a contrasting wood and purfling sandwiched between them. That way your backwood would transition into matching wood on the side, with the same wood also framing the top. If you can't hide it, make it pretty. BTW, Kathy, I think the rosewood looks pretty good with the back wood, so going that way would not be a bad thing, IMO. |
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| Author: | vpelleri [ Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:58 am ] |
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Hi Kathy, Long time reader of your inspirational site. Thanks for all the years of honest luthery. Just my 2 cents, If you want to try mixing woods, I think I'd try a different set of woods (EIR and Mahogany perhaps)and try to use that beautiful blackwood for the sides. I'd make an ebony block to match the part of your cutaway that's smunched up and let the sides into it. You'd have the ebony showing at the turn, but everyone (but us!) will think it's supposed to be there, and we won't tell anyone! Since blackwood and ebony are related any humidity issues should be mitigated. Can't say that for dissimilar species. |
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