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I may be changing my opinion about building multiples at the same time. I have four going right now and just started setting the neck (bolt on) on the Dread. Man did I make a booboo. In my goings on back and forth from one to the other over these past several weeks, I got off square on setting my neck block and don't have a true flat surface on the side from top to back. The neck would not seat without a gap at the heel. To the naked eye, it looked ok. I have fixed the problem with a great deal of rasp, chisel and sanding and finally got the next seated and straight.

I clamped a square that fit up to the side before, during and after glueing. I followed the same procedure on one of the others that the box is closed and it seems to be fine. Can't figure what happened on this one.

I don't use a mold, I use a spool clamp work board set up for a lack of a better explanation. How do you guys make sure, set up and hold this and the tail block area to insure you keep a squared straight flat surface at glueing?

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Mike i'm no expert. But I try to read every thing i can. And from what I read it seems to suggest that there is more chance's of having alignment problems with the sides and neck and tail blocks if you use a workboard. There is nothing there to really support the sides at a perfectly straight angle. They are very flexible on a workboard. I think using a mold and spreaders keeps the sides in proper alignment for the top and back. I would think this method would be the sturdyist.

Yeah, the open workboard is great for the "Spanish heel" method. It can give you a very stress-free box, as you're not trying to make the wood conform to something outside of its "relaxed" state after the various elements are initially shaped. It'll be stress-free (so to speak), but not necessarily square, which creates problems when it's time to attach the neck. Sometimes you can find some surprisingly asymmetrical curves in hand-built "Spanish" guitars.

Glad to hear you have solved this problem Mike!

I take it you dont build using bowls then either - because if you did, then there is no true square block - flat yes, across the side area under the neck heel, but the block to top or back is not 90 degrees on any I have built - I dont think the geometry of the body with a radiused braced top/back will allow it.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Michael, thanks for the input, and you are right I am sure, the molds would probably eliminate this problems

Carlton, likewise

Serge, thanks it did seem to work out

I was hoping that someone else might exist that builds using the workboard deck could chime in.......maybe I am the Lone Ranger on that..........might need to buy some molds from John and make my life easier.

Tony,

I radius my braces, top 25 and back 15, I use a radius dish and a template to get the proper radius on the top and bottom of the neck block and tail block that will coincide with the the above. After I kerf I use the radius dish to bring the top sides and back sides to match the same radius as well.

On some body styles you have a radius and very little flat at the two ends where the blocks will be glued and thus have to match the same radius on the block to get a good fit, this I understand. However on some body styles you do come more flat and square at these locations, especially on the Dread, or at least the one I am using.

This being said, if you take a measurement on your sides from the edge to edge is this not square or close? Prior to glueing the radius braced back and top onto the sides when just the sides are sitting either in a mold or my workboard, from the surface or bottom to the top of the side not set at a true 90 degree position prior to glueing in the blocks in place or desired? I realize that once the top and back are glued on then a true 90 is not possible since you have to compensate for the radius of both.

Thanks for all you guys input, like I said earlier, maybe another "no mold" guy will chime in.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

It can be done with a workboard right. I would just think its a little harder. Just think Irving Sloane And William Cumpiano both used the workboard method.

[QUOTE=Michael Shaw] It can be done with a workboard right. I would
just think its a little harder. Just think Irving Sloane And William
Cumpiano both used the workboard method.[/QUOTE]

Im using a workboard....modelled on Fox's universal workboard. I havent
used molds mainly because of cost of tooling up with same...a mold for
each different style of guitar I make. My workboard can be set up for
anything from a classical to a dreadnaught steel string....spanish method
or (currently) building with seperate neck and body.

[QUOTE=Michael Shaw] Mike i'm no expert. But I try to read every thing i
can. And from what I read it seems to suggest that there is more chance's
of having alignment problems with the sides and neck and tail blocks if
you use a workboard. There is nothing there to really support the sides at
a perfectly straight angle. They are very flexible on a workboard. I think
using a mold and spreaders keeps the sides in proper alignment for the
top and back. I would think this method would be the sturdyist.[/QUOTE]

Keeping sides aligned square can be a challenge but I manage to keep
mine fairly square by clamping sides to dowels while gluing sides to top. I
also put in temporary wooden spreaders between the sides and between
heel and tail blocks until the back goes on. My sides might not be exactly
square but its not noticeable unless you run a square over the
instrument.

Workboards are ok on clasicals but I hated them and had all kinds of symetry and neck problems. Yes the molds take up space but I learned that a tool that is designed to do more than one job seldom does any of them well.
   ALso with the radius of the steel string flat workboard will cause more trouble than they are worth. Try a mold once and see if they don't help your building go to the next level.
   First I block in the set that way I can square it then radius it . Once I place a set in the mold I don't take it out till the top and back are on. Once I started building that way my building jumped and I can really hold the quality and symetry.
john

I think I understand what you are saying, Mike - yes the blocks are gulued in flush against the mold, and if the mold were sitting on hte owrkbench then the blcok wold be 90 degrees to the bench assuming the side of the mold is indeed square as well. That said, if it is or isnt really doesnt matter. The neck heel will be sitting fully inide the area of the side upon which the neck block has been glued correct ?? If this happens t be 88 or 92 degrees to the bench, it jsut means you have ot cut the neck heel at a different angle to get it so seat flush against the side. Here are a coupl pix of a recent student build, showing the neck area to top and back angles. Now if you cut your neck angles previsouly to having the gutiars bodya t this stage, you may be asking for trouble, if indeed you have had something slip/move during glue up. Using the pic of the top2side angle, I take a sliding bevel gauge and set it to be flush on both surfaces. Now take the bevel gauge to the table saw, and under cut the angle on the neck blank a hair, in order to give you some leeway in setting the back angle, the side to side centre line fit, and getting the heel to fit tight to the sides in general.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Here is a pic of the same guitar, showing the curve at the heel area of the sides - the heel will be sanded using the pull sandpaper technique to match the flat cut off the tablesaw to this curve.



For those who might ask, this is a curly french walnut and sitka pseudo-dread, bound in ziricote, top purf is green/blk/red ab/blk and the side and back purf is blk/green.TonyKarol38901.4530902778

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

[QUOTE=tippie53]   Workboards are ok on clasicals but I hated them and had all kinds of symetry and neck problems. Yes the molds take up space but I learned that a tool that is designed to do more than one job seldom does any of them well.
   ALso with the radius of the steel string flat workboard will cause more trouble than they are worth. Try a mold once and see if they don't help your building go to the next level.
   First I block in the set that way I can square it then radius it . Once I place a set in the mold I don't take it out till the top and back are on. Once I started building that way my building jumped and I can really hold the quality and symetry.
john[/QUOTE]
John I agree with you 100%. That's why I bought one of your mold's. It is a great tool. Anyone looking into getting a mold should check out John's stuff. Really well built quality stuff. At a reasonable price.

[QUOTE=tippie53]   
   ALso with the radius of the steel string flat workboard will cause more
trouble than they are worth. Try a mold once and see if they don't help
your building go to the next level.
   
john[/QUOTE]

John,

Alot of the old Spanish classical makers incorporated a dish in their work
boards to allow for the domed tops. On my workboard I follow Fox's
universal workboard specs and have a 20mm wide masonite rim where
edge of soundboard sits on the workboard.

An external mold will get your sides perfectly vertical but for me I can get
close enough to vertical on my workboard that it isnt an issue.

    I have built more seleras and classical jigs than you can think of. If you think your system is good then fine.
    You can only work one surface as a time on a board and while you may have a radius to it the symetry and square often are often off. You must trust the the jig is aligned and the datum points are accurate. They were used in the old days and lots of builders still use them. Human nature hates change. I have no problem with that but if they are so good why the problems? Often on board builts the neck angle is off and neck setting is more difficult because of that. A mold is a true building platform where the side set is squared and contoured and then built all in the same jig without removing.
    there are advatages to the mold over the board. I agree that classicals with the spanish foot by best be built on a board but the neck block system is not as good with the board. Accurate raduising isn't possible as you must remove the set to do the 2 sides thus allowing opportunity for error and misalignment.
   If you are comfortable with your system don't change but if you are doing multiples molds are the way to go. Once I went to molds I found I can build faster and with less problems.
   IF boards work best then production companies like martin , taylor and gibson would have used them. they use molds not boards.
    Please don;t take offense as my opinion may vary to yours , this just shows that there are more than 1 way to do things but often the problems involved are from poor jig construction.
john hall
blues creek guitars