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Mahogany
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=737		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  stan thomison [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:12 am ]
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I read with alto of interest the thread on mahogany. I was wondering why it is normally associated with less expensive models by some manufactures. I personally think from my limited knowledge mahogany is a great sounding tonewood. I see builders think of it as a great tonewood, but for some reason, not as prime as eir & woods associated with higher end or priced models. Is it considered lower end by builders or is that because the dealers and market have made it lower end than eir and others. Will when it becomes hard to get and on CITES and can't import or export then become a higher end wood for market? Not trying to be wise guy, but don't understand the reason associated with lower end or less expensive models. Eir is very accessible,so why is it held in higher regard than mahogany in pricing.
Author:  Don A [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:38 am ]
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Stan, I think the big reasoning is, believe it or not, Brazilian rosewood. Brazilian used to be readily available and relatively cheap. When Brazilian started to become more scarce and more expensive, the large manufacturers looked for the closest next best substitute (as far as tone, wood coloration and availability). This turned out to be EIR. Brazilian then became used primarily for high end guitars and EIR took over for basic models.

Mahogany is a great tonewood and most of my personal guitars are made with it. I personally wouldn't charge differently for mahogany or EIR. I believe a lot of mahogany is now being plantation grown. If CITES makes a distinction between plantation and forest harvested wood, it may still be available. However, the quality may suffer.
Author:  Jason [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:19 am ]
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I was under the impression all plantation grown woods were able to be used? I don't understand why they wouldn't be.. plantation harvested lumber is renewable and most often privately grown
Author:  Colin S [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:42 am ]
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Hear, Hear for Mahogany. As you may have read in other threads I am a geat fan of it. As a tonewood for fingerpickers, I think the rosewood family and clones can't touch it, especially for the more contemporary styles and altered tunings. For the flatpicker (I don't own a pick!), they also want the tonal separation and good fundamentals that Mahogany gives. I do actually own an extremely collectable pre-war Brazilian/adirondack Martin OM-28 (absolutely mint, anyone got $20,000 spare?) which gives a great sound, until you start to play more complex pieces on it when it just seems to become muddy. Switch to my own Cuban mahogany OM and the notes just sing.

I think the reason it is looked down on as a cheap low end wood by the market (not the custom builders) is just because it is cheap and not generally as pretty. But, the difference in cost to an EIR guitar when custom build is pennies. When I look around at all the top fingerpickers in England they almost to a man use a Mahogany guitar!

I've built guitars from a whole range of wood, of which I think Koa is the best alternative to mahogany. But, I have to have a good reason to use anything else.

I believe that the price differential (unjustified?) in many custom builders price lists make people think that it's not as good as the rosewoods. If they charged $500 more for a mahogany guitar than a Brazilian rosewood then I believe mahogany would become the premium and desirable wood!

ColinColin S38369.5312268519
Author:  Skip Beach [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:14 am ]
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Hi,

I don't mean to wander from the subject at hand, but what do you guys think of Sapele - the "other" African Mahogany? Is it the logical mahogany successor or is it just an inferior mahogany substitute?

It's a bit harder than Honduran or Khaya supposedly, is relatively abundant I hear, and is really pretty with ribbon stripes on well-quartered pieces. I'm just starting my next guitar using this wood for back & sides & I really like it so far. I'll report back after trying to bend the sides as it's rumoured to be difficult. Has anyone out there had experience with this wood & is able to compare to traditional mahoganies?

Cheers,
Skip
Author:  Jason [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:18 am ]
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Sapele is another wood thats not given much credit because it's a cheap tonewood and a lot of factories throw it on their bottom end models because of how affordable it is
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:38 am ]
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[QUOTE] Has anyone out there had experience with this wood & is able to compare to traditional mahoganies?[/QUOTE]

I've built several mahogany guitars, and most recently used Sapele. I like it in every way. To my ear,it is drifting a bit towards a rosewood sound--which I like (sorry, Colin). Reportedly, Sapele is THE choice of "mahogany" material at Gallagher guitars. It bent easily enough, and the looks of that ribbon figure are drop dead gorgeous. Report back with your experience...we'd love to get your take on this.
Author:  stan thomison [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:52 am ]
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I just think some of the woods getting knocked because they are easy to get and maybe as high in price is weird. Just because cheap on the market doesn't make it any worse for sound (and maybe better) There was a thread on another forum for acoustic players, and the big thing was most wanted only traditional looks and woods. They considered only eir (except for Brazilian) and other things as the only way to go, unless wanted to get into cheaper woods for lower end guitars. Mention soundports and other things "not traditional made one guy go nuts. He and several others couldn't think of how anyone would want say a McPherson. If they made it with mahogany the guy would probably get ptsd. It may be a blessing in disquise for the micro builders if the big guys don't want to use it. I have some sapele that is really beautiful from Bob C. Going to build with it soon.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:00 am ]
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Stan--I love the term "micro builders". (If only I could lose 10 more pounds....) Anyway, I like the trad woods, but it's the wild stuff--the BobC stuff--that really keeps me interested. I've got a set of Redheart here that I'm wanting to put Yellowheart bindings on. And who knows? Maybe Purpleheart purflings. Ok, that's a stretch even for me. But you get the idea. Man, there's so much cool stuff out there--why not experiment a bit and break out of the mold? I mean, I'm certainly not trying to replace C.F.Martin. Are you? And then why be bound by what binds them?
Author:  stan thomison [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:07 am ]
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amen. I build what I like and lots of guys way more creative. If not we could all apply at Martin for jobs. Love Martin's though along with Taylor and others.Great guitars, but like what others do just as well.
Author:  Paul Schulte [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:23 am ]
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There are lots of great tonewoods out there. The problem is educating the players. Players are a generally conservative lot when it comes to tonewood and they bring many preconceived notions about tonewoods and articles "hyping" a certain wood only muddy the waters further. If the wood has cool looking spider webbing it is instantly hailed as the "next Brazilian". As builders we are faced with either providing for the preconceived notions and making sales, or trying different woods and starving. I have a set of beautifull Cherry and Osage orange I have from Bob C. and they are scheduled for my next 2 guitars. Heck who needs to eat!
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:15 am ]
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I visited Atlanta Hardwood about 8 months ago. They had a large supply of nicely figured sapele. Last month I went back with the intention of buying some but it was all gone. I asked what had happened to it and they said that Martin had bought it all up. I asked whether Martin had gone over to using sapele instead of Mahogany and they said that it depended on the going rate. Martin would buy whatever was cheapest at the time, sometimes it was mahog sometimes it was sapele. I thought that was interesting. Don't know if it was true, but it was interesting.
Evidently Martin had also bought a pile of rosewood that I had my eye on.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:11 pm ]
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WELL!!! If Martin's buying--and using--Sapele, then I'm gonna look for some Honduras! At this Hardwood Barn close to us, though, they had in some 3 foot wide Sapele. That would make a grand guitar, wouldn't it? (We'd have to get Rick Turner to resaw it....)
Author:  Dickey [ Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:28 pm ]
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It's hard to resaw anything much wider than eight inches, I think I know why all guitars are made with two pieces.
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:20 am ]
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I love Sapele as a tone wood as well, however of course it Isn't mahogany (Swietenia) its Entandorophragma. It can be described as a "mahogany like wood" but it definitely is not mahogany. Mind you it's better than Honduran!

I actually do play a rosewood guitar. When I do a gig I usually take four guitars. My golden era Martin 00-18 for blues, (still haven't been able to better it), a Cuban/ European 13 fret 000 for travis/general picking, a small leaf mahogany(S. Microphylla)/cedar OM for DADGAd and contempory and a Brazilian rosewood/European for accompanying my wife's singing. The richness of the rosewood complements the female voice better than the purity of mahogany. There is nothing on earth than complements my voice! Oh, and I take my lute as well for 13th century Troubadour songs. I can't sing in English my medieval french is even worse!

I think it shows that you should always select the guitar according to the music you want to play.

(I love this forum!)

Colin
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:20 am ]
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[QUOTE=Colin S] I love Sapele as a tone wood as well, however of course it Isn't mahogany (Swietenia) its Entandorophragma.[/QUOTE]

Lance, you see the kinds of words Colin is using? I'm surprised the profanity filter didn't catch this one!

Steve Kinnaird38370.5596759259
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:09 am ]
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The dirty word filter only reads at a 8th grade level.   
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:41 pm ]
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And--it's probably not set for Latin!
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:48 pm ]
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Sorry guys! 30+ years as an academic scientist makes me kind of picky when using common names to describe organisms (can I say organisms!) The only way to know with any certainty what tree you are talking about (as this and other threads have shown) is by using the proper Scientific name. Just look in the LMI catalogue and you'll see how it should be done.

Now back to that lute rose, this forum is a great excuse for prevarication.

Colin
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:42 pm ]
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I'm with ya on the scientific names. What an upgrade to the forum if we all used em. Dalbergia nigra instead of Brazilian rosewood sounds so knowledgable. moreover, I propose that if a person cusses in Latin on the forum he should be allowed to get away with it. Perhaps even get special dispensation, perhaps even get promoted. An extra aster?

We need a spell checker for whatever language we adopt.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:01 am ]
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John... I will go out on a limb here and say you probably won't be sensored (or even chastised) for cussing in latin...
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:07 am ]
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Brock Stercus accidit !

John Sic (ita) age ut frater tuus!

Hope I got these right
Author:  John How [ Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:15 am ]
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Author:  Brock Poling [ Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:21 am ]
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(e)
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:50 am ]
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don't know, I just googled word translation and found a site that had the Latin = to some silly sentences
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