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More 12-string questions
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7583		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:03 am ]
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I need to pick the brains of all you out there that have built 12-string guitars. I have some questions and need to satisfy my curiousity before I can feel good about accepting payment for something I've never done before. So here's my list of questions so far.

Do the back, sides or top need to be any thicker on a 12 that on a 6 string?

Someone mentioned earlier (I think it was Paul W.) that you need to make the braces a little taller. How much is a little?

I'm planning a laminated neck (mahog/maple/EIR/maple/mahog), do I still need carbon fiber strips in there or is a truss rod sufficient? If yes on the carbon fiber, what size is recommended?

How much longer does the headstock really need to be? Again, I'm planning the laminated neck and am trying to figure out if the chunk of mahogany I have is big enough or not.

Has anyone done a pinless bridge on a 12-string? Any suggestions if you have?

Does anyone know if a 12-string dred will fit in an Access Stage 5 dred case?

Any tips for installing an L.R. Baggs Element Active U/S pickup? It's my first electrified guitar as well.

Does anyone know if the gold Schaller mini tuners on LMI's site are the same as the ones on Stew Mac's site. There is a price difference, but I can't tell if they are the same tuner or not.

Just for reference, this one will be European maple b/s, Adi top, koa bindings and backstrip. My order should be shipping from Steve today, can't wait to see it.

Guess that's all for now, I'm sure I'll have many more questions before it is all said and done.

Thanks!
Author:  L. Presnall [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:24 am ]
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Hi Dave,

Well, I've only built the one 12'er but by all reports it's holding together fine and sounding better daily...I didn't make any tonewoods thicker than on a 6-string...I did leave the bridge plate a hair thicker (and of course larger)...the tone bars and X-brace were about .675 taller...I've never put CF in a neck so there I can't say, but I used a standard LMI/Allied type rod which had plenty of force to straighten the neck...with your laminations I'd think you'd be fine...my neck was straight mahogany...I did leave the ebony f/b a hair thicker than normal as well...the LMI and SMac tuners are the same, just SMac charges more...I got mine from LMI and they're nice quality...the case would depend on the overall length...I think everything else would fit for sure...when I laid out my headstock I just used posterboard and graph paper and the measurements of a traditional Martin-style headstock...I knew what width I wanted at the nut and the top of the headstock and the rest was easy...have a ball building this one! Can't wait to see pix!
Author:  Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:30 am ]
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I can't answer all of your questions but I'll give a few a shot.
Keep the top/back/sides the same as you would for a six string. And cut the braces, yes, a little taller. I don't have it down to any sort of science, it's just intuition for me. Maybe around 13/16". but don't make them fatter. That's just extra mass without any benifits.
I'd be a bit nervous about a pinless bridge. Maybe you could pin 6 and have the sympathy strings be pinless.
You could go either way on the neck, with or without CF. I've moved away from the CF because it made the neck too stiff in my experience and made TR adjustments next to impossible.
My advice on the headstock it this: Get your tuners and measure how close they can be to each other without touching. Then draw it out on a piece of paper full size. That will answer how tall your headstock needs to be.
Is this a cutaway? If so, be sure to plan on the extra width of the neck at the neck joint.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:30 am ]
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Thanks for the input Larry! I assume you mean your braces were .675 tall (not taller)? I thought those were the same tuners at both sites, thanks for clearing that up!

I'm sure I'll enjoy building it, once I get all these nagging doubts outta my head.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:35 am ]
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Thanks Paul! I was posting while you were.

I am nervous about the pinless bridge too! Arghhh, my customer has an Ovation which has the pinless and he is used to it so he wants that on his new one. I tried to talk him out of it but he really wants it.

I figured as much on the headstock layout. Just wanted a rough idea ho much longer it actually was so I could check one of my Access cases and see if it would fit.

Thanks again, all help with this one is appreciated!
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:01 am ]
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Remember most Ovations I have seen also bolt the bridge down - thats whats under those 1/4 pearloid dots !!

With minitype tuners, about the closest you can mount them is about 1 inch apart - draw out your headstock from there. You will likely need 1 7/8 or so at the nut. The only 12 neck I built had two CF bars - I think it worth it on 12s, the tension is almost double. I would likely make my X braces higher, usually I am .590, but I would go around .700-.750, depending on the top strength. Its easier to shave more off than put it back thru the soundhole !!!
Author:  JBreault [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:05 am ]
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Dave, I suppose you could mechanically "pin" the bridge to the top and hide that with some clever inlay. Maybe a couple of hardwood doweels, just to resist the twisting of the bridge. I would imagine that you could kill a couple of cats if the bridge were to fly off!
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:17 am ]
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Thanks Tony! The guy also want a 1 3/4" nut. He has the Ovation and a Rickenbacker(sp), the Ovation has 1 7/8 nut and the Rick has 1 5/8 so he thought he would go with something in between.

Thanks Joe, I think that is what Tony is referring to also. As far as killing cats, I don't wanna tick off "the Don" so I'll remain silent on that.....for now.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:52 am ]
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[QUOTE=TonyKarol] Remember most Ovations I have seen also bolt the bridge down - thats whats under those 1/4 pearloid dots !!

With minitype tuners, about the closest you can mount them is about 1 inch apart - draw out your headstock from there. You will likely need 1 7/8 or so at the nut. The only 12 neck I built had two CF bars - I think it worth it on 12s, the tension is almost double. I would likely make my X braces higher, usually I am .590, but I would go around .700-.750, depending on the top strength. Its easier to shave more off than put it back thru the soundhole !!![/QUOTE]
Tony, while you are right that CF is probably a good idea in the neck, there is a misnomer about the string tension being double. Remember that the sympathy strings are much lighter than the regular strings. A set of Medium guage strings puts 177.84 LBS of tension on the bridge/nut and a set of 12 strings is 257.14 LBS. Yes it's more but far from double.
The only reason I'm bringing this up is that I was under that impression when I built my first 12 string and I build everything WAY too heavy. Now I treat them like a 6 string with the only exception being the width of the neck (depth remains the same) and the height of the braces.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:16 am ]
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Right Paul, but lights are about 150 or so - so now its 150 to 257 .. getting close to double - I was just guessing - take a look at any Daddario pack, they give the tensions at concert pitch.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:26 am ]
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Indeed, I was just trying to make sure that he doesn't assume it needs a lot of extra strength and over builds it. (Like I did)
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:29 am ]
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Dave,
If you are using .10-.50 strings on a 25.4" scale, it will be 252.89lbs of pressure. 6 strings with light strings on the same scale would be 131.54lbs of pressure. You can do your own calculations of strings from Graham McDonalds website HERE
Good luck!
Tracy
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:26 am ]
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I have built one.
1. Same thickness b&s
2. I did use 2 1/4 x 1x4 CF rods next to the truss rod....neck not laminated
3. My headstock was around 9 inches
4. Mike Doolin has done a pinless 12 string...check out his website
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:55 am ]
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Tony, Paul, Tracy and Andy, thanks for all your help. Can you tell I'm a little nervous about this one?

Andy, I was hoping you'd chime in, I loved the 12-string you just finished. It's also great to know Mr. Doolin has done the pinless version. Maybe I'll just drop him an email and ask for advice.

Tracy, thanks for turning my order around so fast! You da man!
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:49 pm ]
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Dave
Here is the link to Mike Doolins 12 string

http://www.doolinguitars.com/12string.html
Doolin 12 string
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:05 pm ]
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[QUOTE=azimmer1]
4. Mike Doolin has done a pinless 12 string...check out his website[/QUOTE]

Yes but Mike's pinless bridges have brass pins that are glued into the bridge-plate and the strings sit on these. This imho puts it into the hybrid category of pinned-pinless bridge. I would be nervous of using a "traditional" pinless bridge on a 12 string - even Lowden did pinned bridges on their 12 strings. For the guitar-cittern I'm making I am abandoning my ususal pinless and doing a pinned bridge but with the pairs of strings using one hole each(slotted bridge).
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:19 pm ]
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Thanks Todd! So what you are saying is that a Martin 12-string will fit into the same TKL case as a Martin 6-string? That's promising.

Thanks for the link Andy! I was going to visit Mike while I was in Portland at Charles Fox' class. Sent him an email and he said come on over. Unfortunately, circumstances prevented my going (long story). Next time for sure though...

Dave, thanks for the input! I am really not comfortable with the pinless bridge and have already told this guy how I feel about it. We may juat have to go with a pinned bridge or one like Doolins.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:22 am ]
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Todd, thanks for all the info!

I have an Access Stage 5 dred case already. I just wasn't sure how much longer the headstock was going to be and didn't know it the case would work. I'll have a look at the case and see how much room is left with a standard dred in there. Sounds like I should be okay.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:24 am ]
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Dave, you wouldn't happen to have a pic of a bridge with the two strings per hole idea would you? I am pretty sure I've seen it somewhere before but I can't remember wher it was I saw it.
Author:  Dave White [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:45 am ]
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[QUOTE=Dave Rector] Dave, you wouldn't happen to have a pic of a bridge with the two strings per hole idea would you? I am pretty sure I've seen it somewhere before but I can't remember wher it was I saw it.[/QUOTE]

Dave,

Howard Klepper very kindly sent me a photo of one of his wonderful guitars so I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here:

Author:  Dave Rector [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:32 am ]
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Thanks again Dave! Man, does Howard do great work, or what?
Author:  Dave Rector [ Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:51 am ]
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I'm still mulling over this idea of a pinless bridge. I was wondering if you could make a "standard" pinless bridge then drill some holes in it at an angle like Doolin does and stick pins through the bridge/top/bridge plate. When the pins are inserted, push them down into the bridge just enough to inlay a small piece of ebony over them so they won't be seen. Seems as if it would have the same holding power as Doolin's bridge without showing the pins.

Second idea. What about using a couple of bolts like Ovation does and a small piece of brass on the underside of the bridge plate, like the one Stew Mac sells for pinned bridges. I'd use one without holes. My idea here is to reinforce the bolts with the brass plate to help keep it from pulling through the bridge plate and the top.

Can anyone tell me why either of these ideas won't work? I have been know to overlook the obvious from time to time. Dave Rector38919.4117361111
Author:  Dave White [ Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:19 am ]
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Dave,

If you are going to all the trouble of doing the pins like Mike Doolin does then why not go all the way and do one of his bridges - they are really clever and you won't have all that extra weight of bolts etc in the bridge/bridgeplate area. Mike has an article on making the bridge on his website: bridge

As long as you don't copy Mike's bridge shape and acknowledge the originator - Jeff Elliott - he is cool. I'm sure the design can be suitably adapted to cope with a 12 string.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:34 am ]
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Dave, I was only going to copy the pin part of Doolin's bridge. The bolt idea was if the Doolin pin idea wouldn't work for some reason.

If I do make a bridge like Mike's it would definately not be a direct copy. Mike's a nice guy and I have a lot of respect for all his innovations.

Do you think either of these ideas have merit? I am wondering what the effect of eithe would have on the tone of the instrument.
Author:  Dave White [ Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:13 am ]
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Dave,

Having lots of bolts and other re-enforcing bits I suspect can't be good for the tone - just think of the number of bolted old Gibson bridges that have been replaced with dramatic effect on tone. If it were me, I'd use a 6 hole pinned like Howards or one like Mikes. If your client was so fussy, wouldn't they be asking you to make it with an armadillo shell back too
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