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Are there stability issues with a flatsawn neck versus a quartersawn neck? Does a flatsawn neck require additional reinforcement more than a quarter?
Thanks
-j.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

There can be stability issue but also stiffness and other issues although there is no hard and fast rule as different woods have different seasonal shrinkage (movement) and stiffness along the grain.

Add to the fact no matter what the base woods characteristics are, once you add the additional material's stiffness (CF or Trussrods) and the ability to compress (pre-loading the trussrod) you have affected alot of other variables

I beleive its very inportant to have a well quartered neck.... since it will ad strength and stability... more important than reinforcement in my opinion.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Leo Fender built lots and lots and lots of flat sawn necks.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I haven't found any problems using flatsawn wood for necks - but I always orient the grain so that it is perpendicular to the fretboard, usually by laminating several pieces together.

A flatsawn neck wouldn't be any less stiff than a quarter sawn neck. What is important in a neck is how stiff the wood is WITH the grain - not across it. And, that stiffness doesn't depend on how the grain is oriented - as long as the long grain direction is parallel to the neck.

The big advantage of quartersawn wood is that wood is more stable (typically by about a factor of two) with moisture change perpendicular to the growth rings (which is the radial direction in the tree) than parallel to the rings (circumferential in the tree).

That means that large thin sheets of wood (like guitar tops and backs) will be more stable and less likely to warp or crack with changes in humidity if they are quartersawn.

The only possible disadvantage (of a flat sawn neck) that I can think of would be if it was much less stable laterally than the fingerboard. In that case, there might be some very slight cupping of the fingerboard/neck - resulting in a small change of fingerboard radius.

But, the neck/fingerboard is pretty thick relative to its width, so it would probably not even be noticeable.

Phil

buy flat sawn at a decent price at hardwood dealer, flip it and make it 1/4 sawn. We are making great and stable necks that way.

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Leo Fender built lots and lots and lots of flat sawn necks.
[/QUOTE]

I'm with Brock on this one. You can probably go on e-bay and find Fender necks from the 1960's that were made from flat sawn maple and are still straight and true.

[QUOTE=Phil Marino] A flatsawn neck wouldn't be any less stiff than a quarter sawn neck.

Phil[/QUOTE]

I really disagree with this. Cut a chunk of spruce 1/2" square and about 18" long and test the stiffness with it QS versus FS. It is much stiffer quartersawn. Has been anytime I've tried it.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Yes Fender and others made alot of neck that were flatsawn but they were mostly hard maple is is stiffer to start with and then used trussrods that were pre-loaded which increased the stiffness, stability and strength.

If you are looking at just the base wood then quartersawn is much stiffer than flatsawn...it is just how it is dealt with mechanically (via things like CF and trussrods) that make it closer to that of quartersawn.

[QUOTE=old man] [QUOTE=Phil Marino] A flatsawn neck wouldn't be any less stiff than a quarter sawn neck.

Phil[/QUOTE]

I really disagree with this. Cut a chunk of spruce 1/2" square and about 18" long and test the stiffness with it QS versus FS. It is much stiffer quartersawn. Has been anytime I've tried it.

Ron[/QUOTE]

There is a difference in strength where temperate forest species are concerned. Late summer wood (the dark band in an annual growth ring)content provides more strength in the radial orientation. Tropical forests produce very equal tangent and radial strength because they do not have annual growing seasons and this results in the late growth being absent in tropical wood. Mahogany is a prime example of very little strength difference in radial or tangent orientation.

I think the main question here is which orientation is "best". Either orientation "can" work OK if the wood species and piece is properly selected for that oriented use. The guitar type is an important consideration first off. One should also be aware that a tangent face is also the weakest face as regards splitting because medullary rays are aligned from pith to bark. Splitting along these rays is easy and often self generating....think splitting firewood bark to pith instead of side to side tangent This is why I shy away from using flatsawn woods for backs and sides...self destruction eventually.

Larry,
    That is the best answer to this question I have heard in a long time (and the question seems to pop up often). Thanks!

Peace,Rich

Ron, i have to agree with Kevin and Shawn, i had my first neck flat sawn and laminated and it's still very stiff, hasn't budge a tiny bit and made with maple which is quite stiffer than spruce, the fibre of spruce being elongated lacks strength across the grain compared to maple which has more density, if what i said made any sense.   

SergioSerge Poirier38917.0058564815

If you start with flat sawn and laminate it it becomes quartersawn.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Ok bud then if i understand well, if you laminate flatsawn pieces of spruce, you should then gain the desired stiffness right?

Clarification - if you take a flatsawn board, turn it 90 degrees, it becomes quartersawn. If you take flatsawn boards, mark out a SIDE pattern of your neck onto it, cut them out, glue them together and FLIP them up into a neck position, the neck blank has become quartersawn. Its only orientation of the grain - any board can be quartersawn or flatsawn - its how you look at the end grain. A 2x4 that is perfectly flatsawn, becomes a perfectly quartered 4x2 !!!! The question becomes is it useful to you in that orientation and size.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Thanks for this clarification Tony, it makes perfect sense, i guess we are saying the same thing but differently!

Yes, that was originally what I was trying to get at, Tony. My understanding of a flatsawn neck would be that the grains would be running parallel to the FB, while "quartersawn" grains would be running perpendicular to the FB. Regardless of how the mill intended to cut the log, I was referring to how it ended up on the neck....

I'll rephrase it then: Is there a significant difference in neck stability in grain running perpendicular into or parrallel with the Fretboard?

-j.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

Unless its hard maple, I always try to make the neck as quartered as possible - that said, I willingly use wood thats 45-60 of quarter without incident. What are you going to do, toss that stuff away - the big guys certainly dont ???

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Everything I've ever read about the topic said that wood is strongest on its vertical grain. Just because people have gotten away with successfully building something with the load not against the vertical grain doesn't change that fact. I'd want quartered wood in a guitar neck, even if it's maple.

Now, I could be wrong about this (yeah, THERE'S a first!), but I think the industry standard for supplying "quartersawn" wood allows for grain up to 30 (or maybe 40?) degrees off 90 deg. to the face. Grain at 45 deg. to the face is commonly called riftsawn. Anything beyond that--flatsawn.

[QUOTE=CarltonM] Now, I could be wrong about this (yeah, THERE'S a first!), but I think the industry standard for supplying "quartersawn" wood allows for grain up to 30 (or maybe 40?) degrees off 90 deg. to the face. Grain at 45 deg. to the face is commonly called riftsawn. Anything beyond that--flatsawn.[/QUOTE]

The only commercial "grade" of riftsawn I'm aware of is oak. Any other wood sold as "quartersawn" is open to subjective interpretation by the seller or buyer and not official standards. Not unlike tonewood "grades" being subjective.

How many here have read Roger Siminoff's Luthier's Handbook? If I understand him correctly, he conducted an experiment and found flatsawn to be slightly stiffer (maple test pieces). However, he made no mention as to the stability. He only spoke of orienting the grain so as to reduce the shock fracture risk at neck to headstock transition.Darin Spayd38918.9730439815

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DES - Shepherd, MI

[QUOTE=Darin Spayd] How many here have read Roger Siminoff's Luthier's Handbook? If I understand him correctly, he conducted an experiment and found flatsawn to be slightly stiffer (maple test pieces). However, he made no mention as to the stability. He only spoke of orienting the grain so as to reduce the shock fracture risk at neck to headstock transition.[/QUOTE]

This makes sense to me. The only place I have seen real information on the relative stiffness of wood in the two different cross-grain directions is in the Encyclopedia of Wood. In presents data for several species of wood (including Sitka Spruce) showing that the stiffness in the radial direction (perpendicular to the growth rings) is much higher than in the tangential direction (parallel to the growth rings).

This would imply that, in bending a piece in the long grain direction ( like a neck), flat sawn wood would be stiffer. Not much stiffer, because the most important property of the wood is the stiffness parallel to the grain. That is the same no matter if the piece is flat- or quarter-sawn.

The differences in stiffness due to orientation (flat- or quarter- ) would be greater in short, thick beams (although still likely a minor effect), and neglibible in long, slender beams.

Note that this data in the Encyclopedia of Wood says nothing about strength - just stiffness.
Stiffness is represented by the elastic modulus (or, "Young's Modulus") and is a measure of the immediate deformation of the wood under a given load. Strength is a measure of how much stress the wood can take before deforming permanently (taking a set).

I plan to stiffness test a few pieces myself soon, starting with Sitka spruce. I'll post the results, along with pictures of the test setup.

Phil

As I noted, Siminoff only referred to stiffness, not to the subject of stability. However, it has been pointed out that flatsawn has been done on many electrics. My assumption has been that one important factor may be that of the lighter gauge strings. Yes/no/maybe?

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DES - Shepherd, MI

It's gotta be said: many of those fender necks feel like rubber to me, even with a set of 9s or 10s on them. A comment I got from a strat player who tried the red PRS-ish electric I built was how stiff that neck was (mahogany, 2 x CF rods, very long - joint at 22nd fret), and it's hands-down one of the floppiest I've ever built.

As for mahogany: the stuff's very, very stable as woods go, and the differences in strength are minimal to non-existant. I've made plenty of flatsawn mahogany necks.