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| RH and temp http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7600 |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:50 pm ] |
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Hesh, humidity is much more important to keep in check than temp. Unless you are at the point where your are softening the glue (on the hot side) or chalking the glue (on the cold side) temp is only a matter of comfort. Keeping in mind of course that different temperatured air carries humidity differently. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:03 am ] |
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Goodness Grace! if Temp was a big issue I would be in a world of hurt. Summer time mid day shop temps range for 80*-90* deg if I run my movable roller mounted evaprative cooler when working. If I left the thing off 100*+ and I would have 28 failures out there 
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:54 am ] |
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Also keep in mind that the wood's moisture level isn't going to change as rapidly as the air around it. (As I understand it anyway, maybe someone more knowledgeable could confirm or reject that). I'm curious how long it does take for wood to really acclimate. A couple days? Week? I guess I'm lucky in that my A/C usually keeps things right on target so I don't use any additional dehumifiers. Not to throw the topic off track, but you get bonus points if you know what movie this quote is from... "... And another thing. Once you go into that circle, the weather never changes. It is always 67 degrees ... with a 40% chance of rain. Always." |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:57 am ] |
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I always allow wood to aclumate for a period of not less than 10 days if the moisture content is good. |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:03 am ] |
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Waiting for Guffman? -j. |
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| Author: | yukonarizona [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:07 am ] |
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Chiming in, I own a few guitars built in the desert outskirts of Phoenix (at Roberto-Venn) where the workshop area had no environmental controls. For much of the day the work in progress would be exposed to a RH of 15% with temperatures of 100 to 110 degrees. Overnight, the boxes and necks, etc. would be stored in a room kept as closely as possible to 30-35% RH at about 75 to 80 degrees. Now I have those instruments in oceanside New England and they are in general doing very well in the high humidity of summer (RH 70-85%+). Interestingly, they are very resistant to the low humidity conditions of indoor heating during the winter. However, If there is one problem that all three of these instruments share (two acoustic, one electric) it's that the flexibility of the necks has been affected. All three necks (mahogany/ebony each) are tending to loose their adjustability, i.e. the truss rods go loose before relief is let into the neck - leaving them not quite backbowed, but dead straight. So it seems that in this case the thicker stock of the necks has been more of a problem than the thin plates of the bodies. All this is to sort of say that I think that if you store your works in progress and your wood stash in a fairly controlled environment, you can largely get away with a workshop which is not heated or cooled, or humidified or not. Thoughts? |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:25 am ] |
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It's ALWAYS better to build dry than wet. Yukon, you are the perfect example. If the opposite happend where you build in NE at 60-70% and them brought them to PHX at 13% I can almost guarantee that you would have cracks the size of that big one about 4 hours north of town. It's much easier for wood to take on water than to loose it. So it's better to build a bit drier than wetter. And yes, Waiting for Guffman is the answer. "We consider ourselves bi-costal if you consider the Mississippi River one of the coasts. " |
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| Author: | Dave-SKG [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:41 am ] |
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Hesh, building in the bathroom Ay?...take lots of fibre or you may have trouble with "binding" issues   . I think you should take some pics and send them in for the next G.M. issue. That's got to be "the" tiniest shop ever! Wow!
Your Temps and RH are right on. I keep my RH slightly higher than 50% because I am in FL and the average customer's home is between 60-70% on a dry day( with A/c blowing full blast). My temps are determined by how big last months electric bill was...often over $400.!! so 80-85 degrees is common for me. I hate the power company!
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| Author: | Larry Davis [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:44 am ] |
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EMC chart Temerature and RH are equally important to achieving equilbrium moisture content which is the primary goal for controlling storage and building conditions. Change one factor and you change all of it. Wood density and moisture content play a big part of the time line achieving EMC after shop conditions are set. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:29 am ] |
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It sounds to me like most of you are saying Hesh might be better off not running the dehumidifier at all and building in ambient conditions. So, is suddenly changing the RH worse than building in the summer with relatively high humidity? |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:29 am ] |
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Steve, I think we (at least I am) are saying just the opposite. He needs to keep the humidity in check but the temperature increase from the machine running doesn't matter. |
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| Author: | yukonarizona [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:34 am ] |
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I pretty much rambled on and didn't suggest anything. Were I to make a suggestion, I'd say consider just controlling the temperature and humidity in a small space - like a spare closet or large cabinet. Store your wood and unfinished instrument in there while not in use. I think this makes sense especially if you're running your utility bill up trying to control a larger space - and more so if it's not your full time work. Also if the result is making your space hotter by dehumidifying and thus less comfortable to inhabit who wants to work in a sweatshop? There's probably a smart argument for skipping the dehumidifier and running AC if you're going to do anything. That would make it cooler and drier instead of hotter. Besides most home dehumidifiers are very inefficient past the mid 70 degree mark and cost a lot to run - maybe as much or more than AC. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:47 am ] |
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Appreciate the clarification! |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:23 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Pwoolson] Hesh, humidity is much more important to keep in check than temp. Unless you are at the point where your are softening the glue (on the hot side) or chalking the glue (on the cold side) temp is only a matter of comfort. Keeping in mind of course that different temperatured air carries humidity differently. [/QUOTE] This is EXACTLY what I was told by Brad Nickerson. His shop temp varies wildly from really cold (think heavy coat) to warm at a significant "sweat level". But all the wood stays in a small, controlled, properly humidified area when it's not being worked on. It comes out for work, and goes back in for rest. He claims he's never had an issue with it being that way. Bill, but I still admit to worrying about it... |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:47 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Bill Greene] [QUOTE=Pwoolson] Hesh, humidity is much more important to keep in check than temp. Unless you are at the point where your are softening the glue (on the hot side) or chalking the glue (on the cold side) temp is only a matter of comfort. Keeping in mind of course that different temperatured air carries humidity differently. [/QUOTE] This is EXACTLY what I was told by Brad Nickerson. His shop temp varies wildly from really cold (think heavy coat) to warm at a significant "sweat level". But all the wood stays in a small, controlled, properly humidified area when it's not being worked on. It comes out for work, and goes back in for rest. He claims he's never had an issue with it being that way. Bill, but I still admit to worrying about it... [/QUOTE] Well, I change my story when my wife comes out to the shop and it's 62? in there when it's 95? outside. "But honey, I have to keep it this way for the wood." |
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| Author: | Darin Spayd [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:25 pm ] |
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Hesh, didn't you say you leave the door open? Could you not just face the front of the humidifier out the door since the coils do the work, thus allowing some stability of temp in the bathroom? |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:15 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I build in my boxers any way so the temp is fine for me....... [/QUOTE]
Jeez, Hesh. Like I needed that visual... 
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:27 pm ] |
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Thank God he didn't mention anything about the hairy legs!
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:38 pm ] |
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Hesh, same here but in my case, it's for my face!
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