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Has anyone tried Bullseye FP?
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Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:12 pm ]
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Zinsser has some fairly detailed instructions on their website but I was wondering if anyone has had success in using this product. I plan to pore fill with Zpoxy, sand and apply 2 light coats of shellac sanding sealer before beginning the FP sessions.

Any advice will certainly be appreciated...TIA
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:24 pm ]
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JJ,
I used it on my 2nd, but found that the finish was too soft. However, it was my first time FPing, so that may have had a lot to do with it. The only thing I didn't like was that it already had the oil added, and that it not necessary for FPing in the early stages. I think you should mix your own shellac flakes, and use a thinner mix of 1lb and use Robbie's method. It is much easier and builds faster.

You could also add some sandarac at 1part to 10, and that will help to harden the finish. Good luck!
Tracy
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:01 pm ]
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JJ, I used it on my last build as a sealer under lacqure and it worked great.

The real important thing is to make sure and buy the right stuff. You may know this already, so I'm just saying it because it needs to be said.

This is the stuff you want, 100% wax free



This is the stuff you don't want, has wax in it. Unless you want to seal off your domed dishes that is.



Don't know if anyone has tried the french polish product



Here is the blurb from zinsser's on it,

Formulated from a select blend of dewaxed flake shellac combined with a unique lubricating solvent, Bulls Eye French Polish eliminates the need for messy and time-consuming applications of mineral or linseed oil used in traditional French polishing.Rod True38923.0439467593
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:58 pm ]
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I have tried it. I don't like the fact that the oil is in the mix but it will work. My finish was not too soft as Tracy mentioned but it was cureed to two weeks. That said I too am with Rod here the Zinsser's SealCoat as shown in the top picture, is great for french polishing it is and has been my std mix for a long time. It is just a shellac mix, no oils. So you use it in the traditional mannerMichaelP38923.3749189815
Author:  Colby Horton [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:03 am ]
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Why is it a disadvantage to have the oil in the mix?? It's either in the mix or added directly to the polishing pad right??
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:50 am ]
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control on how much and when. If it is in the mix you do not get to control this
Author:  drfuzz [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:11 am ]
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I used the sealcoat as a sealer on the last guitar under Tru-Oil - I liked it.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:50 am ]
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Zinsser's SealCoat is the only pre-mixed shellac out side of their FP in a bottle that is suitable for French polishing. Good stuff but it is a vintage hue not a clear hue.
Author:  Michael McBroom [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:51 am ]
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Michael,

How would you characterize the color of Seal Coat, compared to the various shellac flakes available? Blonde? Superblonde?

Best,

Michael
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:54 am ]
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Michael it has always appeared to me to be a 50% extra blond and 50% amber mix. maybe a little lighter but not much.MichaelP38923.4547685185
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:12 am ]
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I don't know if you have it on your side of the pond, but Liberon also do a dewaxed, oil free FP, their special pale is transparent and gives an excellent finish. I've had some very good results with it. Treat it just like a home mixed 3lb cut FP. I prefer it to the Zinsser as I don't want any colour.

Colin
Author:  JBreault [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:57 am ]
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Colin, is this the stuff you were referring to?

At woodcraft, it comes in three colors; Pale French, Button and Garnet. From the description it seems to be dewaxed and there is no mention of oil in the mix.
Author:  tippie53 [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:58 am ]
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What sets the luthier grade finished apart from furniture finishes is the solids content. When I first started out I to used them as that is what I was familiar with. As I got more experience and became more detailed and picky I started to see that my finishes were less than what I thought they should be.
   I did switch to finises that are designed for the stringed instrument trade and the results are much better with less work.
   If you want to use schellac you need to get the flakes and mix your own. rememeber that schellac does have a shelf life and will spoil.
Good luck and have fun
john hall
blues creek guitars
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:35 am ]
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This is the one I use:



I've FP'd about 30 instruments now and for most of them I have used shellac flakes and DA, just kept a bottle of this on the shelf for sealing tops when working on them etc. Once when I wanted to finish a guitar I found I had no flakes so I got this out and tried it and have to say that its as good as the flakes and DA. Talking to the people at Liberon all this stuff is is their normal flakes dissolved and filtered. It's good stuff. Just buy the 250ml bottles.

ColinColin S38923.5666898148
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:56 am ]
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One of my students tried the Zinnser FP, and it looked more cloudy of veiled than the seedlac I normally use. It did build fast, though.

As I get more expereince FPing I use less and less oil. One problem with oil in the mix is that it will get into the wood. Drying oils, such as linseed or walnut, have high damping, and you want to keep them out of guitar wood. Non-drying oils are worse. Drying oils also darken the film with age, and seem to contribute to shrinkage and checking.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:15 am ]
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It does look a bit cloudy in the can. but put it in a bottle and it looks fine. and is as clear of finish as mixed flakes of the same hue. It is not a pure blond mix so it will be darker as in more amber in tint than pure blond flakes.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:17 am ]
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Thanks for all the comments on your experiences!

My initial reason for wanting to try the Zinsser FP was to only finish the neck ...for a slicker surface. When I bought the product I did trials on mahogany scraps (with and without Zpoxy pore filling) and was pleased with the results. Next I did the same on spruce cutoffs to see what a top might look like. Again, I felt the results were acceptable after several sessions.

Not having ever done any FP and after hearing all of your comments, I just may bite the bullet and try the straight dewaxed seal coat from Liberon or Zinsser...perhaps even flakes. At this point,I feel I need to be able to experience and compare first hand what differences there may be in both process as well as results.

Right now I feel that if I follow the Milburn tutorial, Robbie's DVD and Michael P.'s commentary I should be able to get decent results the first time. I'll keep you posted...stay tuned for further questions as I progress.

One more question (for now)...If I decide to FP the neck and top and apply KTM-9 to the back and sides, should I finish the top first or visa versa?

Thanks again!
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:25 am ]
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Yep top first, allow to cure. I use blank news paper-paper (un-printed) to cover the top, held in place with painters tape when I spray the rest of the body. I would imagine you could do either first I just figured I was sealing the back and sides in shellac anyway before applying KTM9 so it made since to me to do the top first.
Author:  CarltonM [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:57 am ]
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[QUOTE=Colin S] This is the one I use:


[/QUOTE]
Woodcraft now sells Liberon products. According to their literature, the Pale is the only one of the pre-mixed that is de-waxed. They also have Liberon flakes, but again, only the blonde is de-waxed.

Colin, does the Liberon pre-mixed have a claimed shelf-life? One advantage of the Zinsser SealCoat is a three-year shelf-life from their production date (stamped on bottom of can).
Author:  RussellR [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:38 am ]
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I use the Same Liberon Special Pale French Polish on Colins recomendation and I love the liberion product.

Carlton the bottle does not contain any shelf life information, but it comes in a variety of sizes I buy it in 125ml size, that way I can use a fresh bottle each time I have a guitar to do, and the excess gets used for seal coat.
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:54 pm ]
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JJ,
If you want to just do a neck, you may have just as good of luck just brushing on the dewaxed seal coat straight from the can using a foam brush. Let it cure for 10 days, then come back over it with steel wool and Renaissance wax. I did that on my last 2 instruments and it turned out great. If you want a shiny neck, then just wait 2 weeks after brushing, then level and start the FP. That works good too.
Tracy
Author:  tippie53 [ Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:26 am ]
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JJ Call me and I can help you out.
john hall
Author:  CarltonM [ Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:32 am ]
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[QUOTE=LuthierSupplier] brushing on the dewaxed seal coat...using a foam brush.[/QUOTE]
Tracy, you've obviously had success doing this, but I've always read warnings against using foam brushes with shellac. I've assumed that there is some reaction with the alcohol. You've not had any problems? The foam brushes sure would be more convenient for some shellac uses.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:02 am ]
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I think the issue is bubbles not so much solvent. Use a light touch and wet only the leading 1/2" edge of the brush
Author:  Scooter B [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:23 am ]
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How would Tung oil and FP interact?

I have always liked the look and feel of Tung oil finished electric basses but was theinking about FP for my first acoustic since it is forgiving and can be touched up easily.
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