Official Luthiers Forum!

Why all the bashing of the LMI glue? I've used it for years with better success than Titebond, particularly on center seam joints where Titebond's flexibility would show the seam in the lacquer. I usually buy it two bottles at a time and refridgerate it until I'm ready to use that bottle. I'm usually through one bottle in a few months. I've never had it spoil or had any problems with joints failing.

Could someone explain to me what problems they've been having.

I've had same experience. In terms of hardness of glue,HH is first, with LMI glue a very close second.

David,

I wasn't bashing it - I just stated factually that I won't be using it again. This was my problem Joint Failure. I have to have the lmi glue flown to me in the UK and it could be this that was the problem (freezing aircraft hold?) or could have been my technique. I can't relate to the "if it smells good ... " method of testing, it always smelt the same to me from the beginning (slightly sour). I kept the glue in the fridge when not in use and threw it out after 2 months or so. Now I use hot hide glue where possible and where not Titebond, whitepva, ca and epoxy.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I've had the same problem as Dave. I had the LMI glue (two different batches...or at least two different orders) fail me multiple times. I kept thinking it had to be me (and I guess it still could have), but when using titebond and hide glue with the exact same methods I have never had a failure. So it may be my method just did not jive with it. If you check the archives I give a LONG post about exactly what happened step by step because a OLF member thought I was just bashing the glue. I like that the glue dries clear, but other than that I'd never use it again again. (yes that is two agains... I said that once after the first time it failed me but thought I'd give it another chance and it failed me again) I am perfectly aware however that LOTS of people love it and use it all the time and have had zero issues, and I know quite a few people who have also had faliures with it. So for me and my guitars and my reputation on the line I'd rather stick with something I know and has been perfect for me over the years.... Hide glue, and where the surface area is too large for me and I'm not quick enough Titebond orginal. that is all we used at Pantheon guitars (a few hundred while I wa there), and it's all I used for the first 6-7 years (about 60 guitars of mine) of building Mayes guitars as well. I now use Hide for almost everything and I'm convinced it is a superior glue.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

    I've also use the LMU glue since they first introduced it and have never gone back to another resin glue because of the failure free success that i've enjoyed with it.

    Joint faulure that occurs while using fresh glue is usually indication of poor surface matching or preparation and not the fault of the glue. I've seen many poorly set up jointers or improperly used shoot board/plane set ups that give results that look alright, but aren't really satisfactory for good long term joint survival....no matter what glue would be used.

   I take time to work my way through my shop about once every three or four weeks to check the setup of my jointer, shaper, planer, thickness sande, table saws, band saws and the squareness of all fences and guides. Any tool or machine can work its way out of spec setup in a moment of contact with tough or stubborn wood so it's worth the regular checks to be sure that they're ready to give you the results you buy them for.

    I keep only the essential smaller machines here in my small shop. Whatever I need for doing final passes and prep work on parts as I assemble a guitar is here along with all of my handtools and smaller fixtures and things. All of my larger machines and heavier jigs and things are in a larger industrial room that we keep about seven minutes away from here. My Unisaw, resaw unit, large thickness sander, planer, a pair of heavy drill presses and a pair of larger milling machines (one for wood and one for metal with a static converter) and a heavy dust collector are there and are really only needed for bulk or stock preparation work an only run once a month or so, but I check them every time I need to use them.

   The joint must be right in order to function so close scrutiny is needed every time you machine surfaces to put together. The LMI white glue has higher and better quality resin content than any lue I've used in the past. Hide glue is just a different beast that gives different results, but takes less heat to disassemble when necessary.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

LMI Glue is an AR style glue, and as such is vunerable to temperatures below 55 degs when gluing, Dave if they sent it over the ocean I bet it got frozen. I have a 1 gallon bottle in my shed that I'm tossing because it got well below zero here last winter and you can't do that to AR glue and not have a negative effect on it.

Also when you are gluing up you cannot get below 55 or it will go chalky on you, had it happen once during a cold snap and had to toss the pieces

But like the others I've not had any issues with it and really like it, I use Hide Glue for important things like braces, tops, backs and bridge glue ups and LMI white for everything else. No problems to speak of yet

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Like John M, I had catastrophic failures with LMI White. Figured it was my technique as it was a brand spankin' new bottle. So I did a bunch of tests. In every one, the LMI failed before Titebond and both failed before HHG.
I don't bash the glue. I know there are lots of you that use it and like it. Maybe, (hopefully) I just got a bad bottle. I just can't justify the risks of trying it again after that much failure.
Again, I know lots of you love it and use it all the time. But then again, lots of you love and use rosettes. I choose not to. That's all.
I truly hope noone has the same results as I had with this product.

I have had good success with it too.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher] Joint faulure that occurs while using fresh glue is usually indication of poor surface matching or preparation and not the fault of the glue. [/QUOTE]

Kevin,

You are probably right and my jointing techniques suck, but a few cleanup strokes of the joint with sandpaper and regluing with Titebond I and that joint has been fine and stable for well over a year now. When you are building things like guitars that sit at that edge of explosive sound and explosive forces things get very psychological. It's like when I went to see the circus aged 8 and overdosed on butterscotch sweets. Puked my guts out and now just the smell of butterscotch turns my stomach. Never touched one since. Doesn't mean the sweete were bad.

I suspect the glue didn't travel well from the US. I had made 3 or 4 guitars with LMI white glue before this and all was fine. Didn't notice any tonal changes from using Titebond. I scoffed at others here saying hide glue really does impact the sound, but having made four instruments now with hhg for the main braces (including bridge) I have to say I can hear a difference and am now a believer.

It's all about belief and confidence so if it works for you go for it.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Last summer I was at LMI and saw a bottle of FG on the discount shelf. Of course, Chris freely explained they had tested the glue from that bottle.

He explained they wanted to see for themselves at LMI what effect freezing had on the glue. At half price, I considered it, then purchased a fresh bottle for my shop.

Also, some may remember me discussing Titebond White, which is not readily available in my area. I wanted a glue that dried clear inside my guitars. Which is a big plus with the LMI FG glue as well as white Titebond.

I gave a gallon to another OLFer, cause I knew I'd never use two gallons of White Titebond. Since that luthier never brought it up, I can only think, he decided not to use it for guitars.

My main issue with LMI WHite glue it's excessive price when compared with other glues of similar nature. Since I haven't used the product, I have no opinion of it, other than price.

The lack of documentation of the FG glue makes me think snake oil? Grin. I've never asked Chris for a MSDS on the glue, but I bet if I did, he'd gladly furnish one.

Oh, he said the frozen FG LMI glue performed well, even after freezing in their estimation. That falls in line with reading I did on Franklin Titebond's site, that freezing does not adversely affect Aliphatic Resin Glue, except that it thickens slightly.

Education, that is what this thread should be about. The better informed we are, the better luthiers we become. Since many successfully use the glue, then in their eyes it is professional grade. Others of equal stature have found it to be less than suitable due to repeated failure.

Great discussion.

Bruce, what is "FG?"

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I never tried LMI white so i can't comment on it, i use carpenter's glue and HHG where i feel more comfortable ie joining of plates, braces, i love the open time and the strength of the carpenter's glue especially when glueing the plates to the rim and wood bindings and purflings in their respective channels.

Having spoken with the folks at Franklin, they claim there is no difference between Titebond I with its yellow coloring and their industrial version, Hitack, which Taylor and Breedlove use. The glue comes out of the same vat and to one coloring is added. You can't buy Hightac unless you're buying something like 5 gallon pails at a time.

Steve Henderson at Breedlove always claimed that at Taylor they noticed a difference between the two glues finding that Hitack was stronger. Who knows.

The one thing you can do if you're using Titebond is to look at the product code. I'm forgeting the order, but the first two number/letter combination represents the year and month in which it was made, so using letters A-H and J-M (skipping I because it looks too much like a 1) you get for example 6D plus the additional coding, 6D would be 2006, April. It's one way to be sure that you're getting a fresh bottle.

Berkowitz Guitars

I've never once had issues with the LMI glue. I use it for everything.

Going off-topic for a second, does anybody use polyurethane glue in lutherie? Curious....it seems like great stuff.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Like Don, I have never had a problem with LMI's white glue. I love it. It dries
hard and crystalline-as close to HHG as any glue I have found. I do throw it
away if it reaches a six month window in my shop.
I have started using Titebond polyurethane in a very limited way and am very
satisfied with it. I now glue the fretboard to the neck with it. I like it because
it does not introduce any water in the joint which is critical for me. I prefer
the Titebond formulation to any of the others that I have tried. If you try it
just remember, that with polyurethane glue less is better. All you want is a
paper thin layer of glue on one side only. I put a small amount on the piece
and then spread it with an old credit card or Hotel room key until the cover
is paper thin. I find that is the key to working with it. Also, because of the
foaming action, I would never use it on a joint that would not be easy to
clean up (like bridge gluing or fretboard tongue gluing to a top).

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] Bruce, what is "FG?"[/QUOTE]

Click Item
to Add Description Availability Each 3+
FG LMI glue, 8 oz. In Stock $7.85 $7.50
FGG LMI glue, 1 gal. In Stock $71.75 NA   
   
Instrument makers glue

Howard, I don't know. See above. If I were giving the glue a name, I'd call it: IMG for instrument makers glue.

Here is the blurb from the LMI site:

Instrument makers glue
Rarely, do we receive a sales order here at LMI that does not include this fine glue. Perfect for any area of the guitar where wood is bonded to wood, this is the only glue on the market made especially for instrument makers. Because this glue dries hard it is said to provide a sound transference medium superior to other glues. It sets up in 15 to 30 minutes, dries transparent, is water-resistant and will soften with heat for repairs. It has a shelf life of 6 months to a year, 9 to 15 months if refrigerated. If it smells sweet it’s good. If it smells sour use it as a household glue, but not on instruments.

Craig Montgomery, a repairman from the rainforest area of Australia (Cairns), said this about the FG glue, “Finding a glue that would hold bridges on when being re-glued has been an ongoing battle for me. Having tried most of the recommended glues used by experienced American repairman and guitar builders and none of them being entirely satisfactory, I was on the verge of resorting to epoxy when I decided to try your glue. It is excellent and has answered my prayers (so to speak)…”

Back to the Polyurethane glues, could it be used to glue up neck laminations? You know, like many builders do these days

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Absolutely! I will most definitely begin using TiteBond Polyurethane for my
neck laminations. A perfect application for it as it does not exhibit any
"creeping" as Titebond 1 does.

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com

Perfect, thanks Sylvan.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Sylvan, I truly hope you never have to remove your fretboards, as polyurethane glues do not release. It is a very permanent adhesive.

I've run into truss rod problems in some of my early guitars, and am very thankful the glue I used allowed safe and easy removal.

There are quite a few places where we can use polyurethane glues, but any item that may need removal or replacment is not one of them, IMHO.

I wish I knew what Jim Olson is using. Keaggy's guitar last weekend had the straightest neck I've ever seen. Introducing a backbow, not on that guitar. But it didn't have any relief either to the naked eye. IF there was any relief, it was only measurable with a straighedge and feeler guage.

Having no relief at all on a neck, is that a good thing?

I'm asking because i was told by someone there was none on the neck of my no 2 and that i was supposed to have a bit of relief by another person??????

Can someone deconfuse me please?

SergeSerge Poirier38942.7189699074

Mario -
That was my thought exactly when I first started experimenting with
Polyurethane glues. Not reversable. That is always what I heard. But, as
usual, I wanted to find out for myself. So, I took two pieces of wood
roughly 2" x 4". One 1/4" thick (fretboard) and the other a piece of 3/4"
plywood. I glued them together with Elmer's ProBond Polyurethane
adhesive. I let it sit 24 hours to insure that it was cured.
I then attempted to disassemble the glue joint in exactly the same way
that I would remove a fretboard, i.e., I heated the wood with a heat
blanket for exactly 5 minutes. I then used a spatula to try to get in the
joint and separate it. AND IT CAME APART CLEANLY. The surfaces of the
two pieces were actually clean, as if they were never glued together. No
splinters, nothing. So, I conclude that polyurethane glues (certainly
Probond) is most certainly reversable with heat just like Titebond 1, etc. I
no longer view the popular opinion that polyurethanes are irreversable as
good information.
If you have experimented with it and come to another conclusion I would
love to know it!

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com