Fish glue!?
What's a matter. Building and playing your guitar in Seattle?
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| Fish Glue Sources ? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7994 |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:05 am ] |
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David Collins! Where did you tell me you could order a small amount of fish glue? I found Norland Products website but I want to try the smaller bottle before buying a gallon. Thanks! |
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| Author: | bob J [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:10 am ] |
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Fish glue!? What's a matter. Building and playing your guitar in Seattle?
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:12 am ] |
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Lee Valley sells it in pint or quart bottles I believe, but if your looking for a sample just swing by the shop some time and I can spare some. I never use a full gallon before ordering a fresh batch anyway. |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:50 am ] |
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Thanks Dave! Just ordered a bottle 
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:26 am ] |
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I've heard the term fish glue thrown around but must admit that I've never used it. Or even really know what it is. I assume it's sort of like hide but using fish hides instead of livestock. Yes? How does it work? |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:39 am ] |
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Oh no, we've opened our selves up to more jokes about broken fish
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| Author: | JBreault [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:42 am ] |
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Paul, this link has some information about fish glue: Norland Products It sounds like a great product as long as you don't get the glue joint wet. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:53 am ] |
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Has anyone used it on bridges? Sounds like a good solution. |
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| Author: | JBreault [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:57 am ] |
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I was thinking it looks good for bridges too. My only worry would be that spilled drink...good way to accidentally kill a cat. 
I also wonder how hard it dries. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:58 am ] |
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But the idiot that leaves the guitar in his trunk for a weekend won't be calling because the heat made his bridge pop. Unless of course the car is at the bottom of a lake. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:05 am ] |
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I use the LV fish glue on all my cocobolo guitars - back braces, back seam, kerfings, and to glue the back only - the top you can use titebond. No failures yet, I dont seew hy it would unless you completely immerse the gutiar in water. As strong as HHG, but has about a 4 hour open time, and 24 to cure. Its hard as rock once dry. I was concerned about using TB on coco, so I did a test with two freshly scraped pieces from the same board. One TB, one LV fish. The next day, the TB came apart cleanly on the glue line, no fibres taken at all. The fish took alot more effort to break, and it took fibres apart to do it. I was sold. |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:52 am ] |
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I remember having this conversation in Erie with Tony... I will definitely try it out next time to glue the back and top to the rims. (the only part I'm not quick enough to use HHG)... Lee Valley... hmmmm |
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| Author: | David R White [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:12 am ] |
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I have a little experience with the Norland Fish Glue from LV. I wanted to move up from Titebond but didn't feel I was quick enough (yet) to use hide glue effectively. After reading as much as I could on all the forums I came to the conclusion that it had a lot of the benefits of hide glue, with the benefit (or drawback) of extremely long setting times (LV says 12 hours of clamping). There have been discussions about the joints being weakened by humidity but I could only find rumours and noone that had had that experience first hand. So far so good, really easy to use and the first bridge I glued on with it made my best sounding guitar so far. |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:18 am ] |
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Hey Dave, welcome to the OLF! Looking forward to hearing more from you, but most importantly, we like pics here at the OLF!!! 
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:26 am ] |
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Tony, is there a reason that you don't use it on the top or are you just saying it isn't "needed" as it is on the coco? |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:54 am ] |
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Sure Paul .. I use TB for all other woods and guitar stuff. So as the top is glued to the kerfing (an initially to the top rim of the sides - then that gets routed off for binding) I feel that I dont need to use it there. No reason that I couldnt, but if I had my way, it would be TB for it all - the stuff is 1/4 the price, and dries quicker). Its just that coco and TB for me anyway doesnt work as well as the FG. |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:48 pm ] |
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Paul, I have used it on bridges but stopped because it is tougher than hide glue to clean up. This stuff is sticky man! It works great though! |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:24 pm ] |
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Norland High Tack Fish Glue has been my main glue for at least the last four years, and I doubt I'll ever change. It does require a long clamping time to fully cure, but also has a very aggressive initial tack. In fact I quit using clamps when joining tops and backs in favor of a simple rub joint (assuming ther is no warp that needs to be held in place), and it works wonderfully. I will agree with Robbie about the cleanup though. There is this last thin layer that clings tenaciously to a finish when you are cleaning it off, and often appears to cause blushing. Still, it always cleans up nicely for me after drying. And David, I've heard the rumours about humidity resistance too, and pretty much dismissed them as just rumours. That's not to say that it has great moisture resistance, but neither does hide glue and in my experience so far I would estimate them to be about equal in this respect. On a chemical level, the collagens in the fish glue are almost identical to bovine collagens, with the only significant difference in two amino acids - proline and hydroxyproline. These are relatively large amino acids, and simply put they act somewhat of a catalyst for the gelling of the glue. These are the amino acids that the the others begin to coil around at a certain temperature, causing the glue to gel. Since the collagens of the cod and halibut that fish glue is made from have significantly lower levels the gel temperature is much lower. The difference in levels of these acids do not appear to affect the end hydrogen bonds that make glues work. My "soon to be former" shop mate, David Sutherland, absolutely loves this glue in his work on harpsichords and pianos. He has been doing a lot of research in recent years in to the earliest fortepianos in preparation for a book. He has found significant amounts of fish glue on the order records of Bartolomeo Cristofori's (the inventor of the fortepiano) shop from the early 18th century, so it has certainly been around a while. |
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| Author: | Matt Gage [ Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:00 am ] |
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I have not had the best experience with fish glues. it is, in my experience, weakend by humidity. this is not a rumor. I had two out of the three guitars I built with it come apart. However, I can not tell you for sure weather the glue gave in, or weather my wood moved beyond the point where any glue would hold. i am not one to trash a product, but i must caution you folks on using it, i know i will stick with HHG. Matt |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:08 am ] |
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Matt, I'm very curious to know if you used Norland's or some other brand. The whole glue argument always has me scratching my head. Some folks say "you can hear the difference.". I say, "How? Do you build first with Titebond, then play it, then take it apart and re-assemble with HHG or other?" I heard that Jim Olson uses Titebond on everything. Certainly nobody complains about the sound of his guitars... I have heard the argument for HHG on bridges, as it is easier to re-glue a bridge if HHG was used originally. If that's true, then there's a good reason to use it there. Now it's Fishy Glue! If anyone starts making Cat Glue...I'm protesting! 
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:15 am ] |
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Matt, I'm also curious about your experiences. I've sort of been under the asumption (in my one day of research) that HHG and fish have about the same resistance, or lack there of, to moisture. Do you find this to not be the case? I'm searching for the perfect glue for bridges. Titebond creaps under hot conditions (I've had customers leave them in the trunks of their cars in the summertime.) I'm not good enough with HHG to get everything set in time. I've done two bridges with it and one popped. The other: I cringe every time I open the case. I've actually resorted to epoxy which is great for this application but cleanup is pretty bad. |
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| Author: | Matt Gage [ Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:34 am ] |
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hey Paul,and Don...good to talk directly with you. I would say that the fish glue is a bit more vulnerable to the humidity and heat. I too have had a bridge re-glue project thanks to our latest heat wave and the guitar being left in the car all day. My product was made by a local company here in Massachusetts and was originally recommended to me by a very well known builder that I had the opportunity to spend some time with. Shortly after he had problems with the glue, i did as well. I have no experience with the norland product, so therefore can not comment on their particular formula. for me, I have had the best success with LMI white and HHG. I belive the fish glue will liquify with less moisture and heat than the others. at this point, I hav`nt got time for the pain. 
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:36 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Pwoolson]I'm not good enough with HHG to get everything set in time. I've done two bridges with it and one popped. The other: I cringe every time I open the case. I've actually resorted to epoxy which is great for this application but cleanup is pretty bad. [/QUOTE] I wonder if you need Superman speed to get a bridge on with HHG...everytime I've tried, it jelled before I could get it on there. I quit trying and went back to LMI white. IF the fish glue is a good glue for the application, AND there aren't the issues I've heard, AND Matt's experience was from a bad batch, THEN I would think fish glue might be an ideal glue for bridges due to it's longer open time and lower temp jelling point. I still have questions, but I'm listening... |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:45 am ] |
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My experience has been quite different with humidity. Over the last few years I have glued up hundreds of bridges, headstocks, braces, side joints etc., with fish glue and have yet to have a single one come back with problems. My old Oahu parlor that I rebuilt a few years ago (fg on braces fingerboard and bridge) is holding fine, and I use it for my camping guitar. It gets abused and exposed to conditions no guitar deserves. And although I know this is not a very valid test, I have more than once forgotten small laminated pieces in my pocket and run them through the washing machine. Of course there is no stress here, but no delamination after a 15 minute soak. Perhaps the Norland stuff has something different in it that changes it's humidity resistance? "I heard that Jim Olson uses Titebond on everything. Certainly nobody complains about the sound of his guitars... " And I don't mean to offend any Olson fans out there, but I really don't get how his guitars got to be so admired. I have played at least a half dozen of them, and they have all been good guitars. About as good as a factory made Guild, and not much better. Maybe there are some great ones that others have played, but the ones I've seen looked, played and sounded like a $1,000 factory guitar (add $9000 for celebrity endorsements ). |
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| Author: | Matt Gage [ Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:51 am ] |
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Brother Don, you don`t need to have super speed when using HHG, rather to be consious of the moisture content of the glue. I make sure my HHG is thinned out a bit so that you not only have a second or two more to place your bridge, but also so it dosent dry so thick that you cant get the join tight. the quick set up time becomes your friend eventually. |
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