Hi Colin
I just replied to your email.
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| Solid linings on a Steel String http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=8032 |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:21 am ] |
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I'm in the process of building a walnut/euro OM with a cherry neck and am seriously toying with the idea of using solid lime linings (Tilia x europea). Solid linings just look so cool, and lime has a superb structure and strength to weight (I'm even toying with using it for my back braces, don't laugh!) So, have any of the steel string builders used solid linings instead of kerfing? If so, what dimensions did you use. Oh, and can any of you classical builders that use them chime in as well please. All help gratefully received. Colin |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:43 am ] |
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Hi Colin I just replied to your email.
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:08 am ] |
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Taylor guitars are using solid linings for all of their R Taylor series guitars  |
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| Author: | Bobc [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:17 am ] |
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I'm pretty sure Mario uses solid linings too. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:24 am ] |
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The only issue I can see is weight. But then it's not a ton more than kerfed linings. Of course you will have to bend them, and get them to match the inside of the rim, so it won't be as simple a matter as installing kerfed linings. The linings for the top will go more smoothly than the ones for the back...you can't avoid the issues there, unless you use Bruce Dickey's lining modification idea. (BTW Bruce...I liked the idea) |
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:35 am ] |
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I used laminated solid linings for a while but I really didn't notice and advantage so I went back to kerfed linings. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:06 am ] |
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I've been using solid lining of spanish cedar on my steel string for a while now and like it a lot. Mine are .170 inches thick. |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:10 am ] |
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Colin. Okay since you asked for input from classical builders, here's mine: I still secure the top to the sides using tentellones. I realize it takes longer, but I just like 'em more than kerfing. For securing the backs, I started using basswood linings several builds ago, mostly just because I've always liked the looks of solid linings better than kerfed ones. At first, I tried bending the basswood at full thickness (about 0.2" or 5mm), but I discovered that basswood tends to wrinkle at the waist bend and also does not seem to hold bends all that well. Then I met Lucio Nunez. He also uses basswood for linings, but showed me how he laminates them to avoid the wrinkles. So that's what I do now. I cut the basswood into strips about 0.1" wide, bend them on my mold using a blanket, and then glue them together using regular Titebond, and before the glue has set, I mount the laminated bindings back onto the mold and crank up the heat again. I use a full-length female caul for laminating them to minimize voids. I then leave them clamped down in the mold until the glue has set. After removing them from the mold, I sand the outside corner edge (the one that will show) to give it a rounded profile. I'm going to be doing another batch in the next few days or so. This time, I plan to try laminating one first and bending it on the mold after the Titebond has dried, and see how that works out. It might work better for minimizing voids. A nice benefit to laminated basswood linings is that they hold the shape very well. No springback at all when I pull them off the mold. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:58 am ] |
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If one is laminating, why not go for a bit of decoration? E.g., run a contrasting veneer betwixt the two basswood (lime) strips. You'd have a version of white / black / white inside your guitar. Of course, you might not WANT to advertise the fact that you are laminating two strips together! (But real men don't worry about such things, do they?) Steve |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:17 am ] |
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Colin, I've been away for a while and so missed this. I think solid lime linings would be great for a steel string. I haven't done linings but on one that I have just finished I used lime for the neck and tail blocks and if I'd had pieces long enough I would have done linings too. It is a strong light wood and easy to carve/drill/ route etc. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:22 am ] |
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I have used soild linings for a few guitars. They were basswood from LMI. I'm not sure if they still sell them. They worked well, just had to bend them first. |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:36 am ] |
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I have just begun routing my bindings. They are short, to cut down on the end grain gluing surface, and run between vertical braces. I made male and female jigs to smooth both sides and then I run them through again with a cove bit to give them a nice scooped out look from the inside. I have only just begun to do this so I can't offer too much feedback on the tone but it sure stiffens up the sides nicely. I can rout all the linings from one 4x20x5/8 piece of wood. |
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| Author: | KenMcKay [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:20 am ] |
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post removed since I tried for 10 minutes to load the .jpg with no luck. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:02 am ] |
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Hi Burton, welcome to the OLF! 
Thanks for sharing your input! |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:40 pm ] |
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I like to use solid back linings on both steel string and classical guitars. Usually I use willow wood, but cedro works well too. I'cve never had much luck bending anything more than 5mm thick. I prefer kerfed top liners, since I usually use a wider purfling around the top, and feel the extra glunig surface helps. |
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| Author: | Mario [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:49 pm ] |
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Who's "Burton"? I use solid or laminated linings. Haven't used kerfed in, oh, 6-7 years... I have a 3" black ABS pipe, 36" long. Solidly capped at one end, and with a removable inspection cap at the other. Make up the linings(.200 wide by whatever tall you wish), profile them, and put them in the pipe. Fill the pipe with water, to the top, cap tightly(important detail!), and place in the sun. In roughly 2-3 hours, the water will be HOT, very hot, and will have built up pressure, sicne it wants to expand, but couldn't, because it has no place to go(cap tightly <bg>). The hot water gets forced into the linings, and this combination lets them bend nicely. I get my bending form ready(full heat), and leave the top slat off. I'll bend the linings directly on the hot blanket, clamp them down with the waist caul and at the ends, turn down the heat a tad, and walk away. Once dry, I'll toss them in the oven overnight at 220f to dry them completely. It really isn't as hard or time consuming as it seems from reading the above; it takes much less hands-on time than cutting the kerfs takes. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:43 pm ] |
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Hi Mario, Burton is the guy who posted just before Ken Mckay! <G>! Thanks for that tip,i'll give that a try for sure!! |
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| Author: | Tom Morici [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:21 pm ] |
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Burton Welcome! I don't see how making short lining sections cuts down on end grain joints, im confused. And first Ive ever heard of jigs to smooth inside and outside. And coving them instead of roundover is a new concept to me also. I do think a cove might look nice, sort of a fillet look. There is more than one way to do most things. but sure sounds like a lot of extra work. Plenty of people here to ask if you have ????'s Ive done a few guitars and mandolins with solid linings. I did'nt notice any difference in tone. Just made the sides stiffer when out of the building form. But so do the reverse kerf linings. I really like C. Fox capped linings now, stiffest yet and easy to fit. Again, welcome!
Tom |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:52 pm ] |
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Tom, first time i hear about capped linings, could you elaborate on this a little please? or if you'd have pic to share would be fine! Thanks Serge |
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| Author: | Tom Morici [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:03 pm ] |
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Serge No pictures of them to share, I plan on posting some pictures of my work etc. (my hard drive died, I lost everything on it, still loading software on the new one) Paul Woolson posted some not that long ago. He made some for some of the forum members here. Nice of him if you ask me. Not my favorite job. But worth it. I first saw them in an American Lutherie article about Charles Foxs method. That was a few years ago. Sorry I couldnt be more helpful. Tom |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:30 pm ] |
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Dave, yes I've used lime for tail and head blocks as well, though I'm using cherry for this one to go with the cherry neck (I like to match the neck and headblock as they work as a system). I get the lime for linings from David Dyke. and blocks of it for tail/head blocks from Axminster. Colin |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:39 pm ] |
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Thanks everyone, especially Mario for his tips, always a fund of pratical knowledge. I'll give them a go, nothing to lose, I've got plenty of mahogany kerfing as backup! Colin |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:48 am ] |
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Tom my friend, i feel your pain, lost everything ???Makes me think i gotta make some back up CDs, if i lost mine, the carpet of our living room would be soaked with tears! I got thousands of pictures and guitar related files in there... Don't worry about it bro, it was just to add to my personal library of knowledge, i'll try to find Paul's thread, good luck with fixing your computer bud! Serge |
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| Author: | Tom Morici [ Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:48 am ] |
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Serge Heres is a picture of the capped lining that I was talking about. 
Keep in mind this style takes twice as long to install glue in the kerfed part,let the glue set, then glue in the cap. Extra steps to make them also. As I said before this style sure is stiff you can take out your spreader once they are in. If they do improve tone, I don,t think you would notice the difference. I do like the way they look,but plan on using them only on my most expensive builds. Tom |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:52 am ] |
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Thanks for finding this pic for me Tom, i understand better now, yeah they look plenty stiff all right but as you say, better to use them on high ends guitars! That was really appreciated Tom, thanks again my friend!
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