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K&K pickup inquiry
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=808		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey Bruce
   I am in need of a pickup for an acoustic guitar. I'd rather not put anything under the saddle (personal hangup) and am interested in the K & K. BUT, the last time I installed one of those there was a preamp required. I notice that no preamp is required with the set you are selling. Is that a change in design, or just an entry level setup? It would be really nice if I could despense with the internal battery, and the preamp, and all those extra wires.

John
Author:  Dickey [ Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes, John, this is the basic system, it's components are three transducers which are .775 or near 3/4 inch in size, wiring and a quality end pin jack very minimal. The standard transducers require no preamp and can drive an amplifier without assistance.

My stock came in three waves, one of the last things I decided to stock is their mini-system. It has .490" or near 1/2 " size transducers, three of them. The mini requires a preamp, which can be internal or external to the instrument.

Also, for the uncommitted, my brother in law falls in that category. Removal is a concern to some, so the unit comes with a special tape used to install and later remove the system, clean. Of course, the sound is a bit better mounted directly to wood of the bridge plate.

For onboard controls, it requires the internal battery and preamp. Those are the Ultra-pure units which it sounds like you've already experienced.Dickey38376.5039351852
Author:  Pwoolson [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey Bruce, are you sure the minis require a preamp? Karen
told me that they don't which is why I chose to stock those
instead of the regular pure western. On a guitar I sold, I
installed one and tested it for a signal (into a tuner) because I
don't have an amp to test with. It sent a signal just fine and the
client hasn't said anything about the signal being too low.
Did Karen tell you something different than she told me?
Author:  Dickey [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:48 am ]
Post subject: 
I got the info either from the site or Deiter. I've dealt with Deiter, the deep voice on the sample CD and their techguy when I call. Very knowledgeable. Karla, the CEO handed me off to Deiter for tech questions.

Well, there is no arguing with success, I'm glad you tried the mini and it works barebones. The preamps do contain a ten power gain, to ramp up or down the amount of signal needed, set it and forget it internally on the preamp, if so equipped.

Here is a comparison photo of the Standard and Mini Pure Pickup system for steel string. Standard .775", mini .490" on the transducer size.



Dickey38376.5109259259
Author:  yukonarizona [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:26 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey folks,

    I've installed a couple hundred K&Ks in my shop and have heard them
on everything from entry level to the very toppest of top end guitars. I no
longer use the vinyl tape which K&K supplies to place in between the
transducers and the bridge plate unless requested by the customer. It
kills the sound of the minis and clearly dampens the standard size.
Several times I have removed the superglued pickups from bridge plates
with no trouble at all. With care the transducers and bridge plate suffer
no damage from the removal process.
     Although the passive signal form the mini is as strong as other
manufacturer's similar products it is much less than the K&K standard
size and may need to be boosted. Alternatively, if the bridge plate is
overall very small (thereby requiring minis), an alternative (if there is
room) is to install the standard size in between the front of the bridge
plate and the junction of the x braces. This was once recommended to
me by K&K on a troublesome installation. It worked fine.
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:27 am ]
Post subject: 
That is the question.
I would like to know what the preamp looks like. Is it incorporated with the end pin? Am I correct in assuming that it requires an on board battery? Bruce do you have any idea about the relative weights of the mini transducers vs the larger ones?

I am trying to make an intelligent decision here, but will doubtless go for some sized K and K once formed.

The player for whose guitar these pickups are destined is a strummer, and he strums pretty hard. Does open mic work and is getting a few gigs now. He is a little bohemian and I want to keep the entire installation as simple as possible. If he has a battery I am sure he will return the guitar to me when the battery runs down. That sort of thing. But, he is pretty exacting about the sound of his instrument.

Got any advice?

John
Author:  yukonarizona [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi John,
      The K&K with the onboard pickup is the UltraPure Western. More info
can be found at this link: http://www.kksound.com/
ultrapurewestern.html. It requires an onboard battery mount. The
preamp is mounted in the soundhole for access to the controls. K&K also
makes an outboard preamp that contqains the battery. It is available
alone or as part of the Trinity Western system which has both the
bridgeplate transducers and a mic.
     If your bridgeplate will fit the standard size K&K infront of the bridge
pin holes that's what you'll want to use. You can check the size
requirements here: http://www.kksound.com/purediagram.html
     The K&K bridgeplate systems may not be ideally suited for a heavy
strummer. In such cases the under the saddle option ala Fishman Matrix
is often the best choice - especially if the open mics are in a noisy venue.
The new Baggs M1 soundhole pickup is a terrific way to go also.
Author:  Dickey [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Dickey Guitars K & K Page

I have the standard Pure Western photo up on my site. It's the triple transducer wired directly to the endpin jack.

The endpin is a stereo setup, but works with a single output source such as the triple transducers. Later, an upgrade including an internal gooseneck mounted microphone will tap the second channel of the jack.

A basic system is just the triple transducer, standard or mini size. Any adjustment to the sound must be made at the guitar amp or an additional unit such as the Pure Preamp.



An upgrade to that would be to add the Pure Preamp, which is connected via guitar short guitar cord to the belt clip unit. What that gives you is external control of Bass, Mid, Treble, and volume.

This in effect becomes half of a Trinity System which uses a dual channel belt clip preamp unit. On that unit, you may externally blend output from the transducers and the microphone. Inside the preamp are two sets of adjustments for each channel, bass, mid and treble trim pots to dial in your sound, also adjustable via a gain is 1 to 10 power enrichment of the input signal. The batter is installed inside these preamp units, not in the guitar.

While available, I do not stock the onboard electronics units. Why? Mainly because I don't like the look of exposed electronics when looking inside an acoustic guitar, battery, electronic module, and extra wiring making all the connections. But I can see a definite simplicity to operation of the unit, since there is no external unit.

I'm convinced that the systems are quality units, and American Made, but I tend to go with simplicity, and it just doesn't get much simpler than the pure western system. Dickey38376.8079166667
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Guys
   Are you saying that if I put in the K &K regular sized transducer with no preamp that if the player later wanted to upgrade to a preamp he could add that externally to the guitar via the belt clip apparatus. Is that a possible upgrade that would not necessitate putting more hardware inside the guitar.
   I'm with you about not seeing a lot of stuff inside the soundhole. In fact, I really don't like the idea of anything inside the guitar but wood but that is not an option here. My thought is that those three transducers would have less impact on the acoustic sound of the guitar than an undersaddle piezo.
   Should I just go ahead and get the little pickups and then a small preamp?
   Right now I am sort of leaning toward an external preamp with those little pickups because I do not want to mess with the pure, unplugged, acoustic sound and the lighter the load on that bridge plate the better.
   Is this sound reasoning?

Thanks
JohnJohn Kinnaird38377.3270717593
Author:  yukonarizona [ Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi John,

     Yes, you can certainly add the outboard preamp to the system
later. You could use any manufacturers accessory preamp. I kind of
like the Baggs model because it's the smallest.
     I must maintain that the weight difference between the standard
and mini pure western transducers is negligible. It may be that the
larger versions weigh three times as much as the minis but they are
still very light. Both sets of transducers are light. I doubt that
anyone could hear the difference when the guitar in question is
played acoustically. Now if your bridgeplate won't accept the
standards that's a good reason to consider the minis. Otherwise I
would never suggest to one of my customers that they use the minis
over the standards. Simply, the standards sound better on their own
and have such a strong passive signal that a preamp is not necessary
for most applications - specifically meaning the applications where
the K&K pickups are the best choice.
     All that said, these are my opinions which I base on my
experience and that of my coworkers and customers. Your thoughts
are certainly reasonable.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Other than the very positive reviews and the price, one of the things that convinced me to give K&K units a try for the guitars I'm building for friends (both of whom 'play out' fairly often, and need to plug in) is the fact they can be used without a preamp if need be (cheaper), sound good like that, and that you can, at any point, upgrade to the 'full' system without a major hassle.

Now, as to how I actually like the pickups in terms of tone...I'll get back to you when I've installed one of them ;-)
Author:  Dickey [ Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Simplicity, better sound than piezo undersaddle, you got it. My brother-in-law Jon recorded a cedar / rosewood dred I built. He used a two hundred dollar microphone which sounded lucious, then he played through the K&K Pure pickup system, no preamp.

The microphone won, but the pickups sounded fantastic too. Kind of like comparing apples and oranges, not a real fair fight. So no doubt that's why the Trinity may edge K&K toward 'as good as it gets' status, with the addition of the microphone.

Again the basic system is incredibly powerful, output can be easily contoured at an amp during play. My twenty year old came down from the game room, handed me a sheet of paper with the settings for the Peavey Delta Blues. "There you go Dad, that's a perfect setting for the K&K's in your guitar." (I currently own a Taylor 310 Dred with the standard pure pickups)

I've installed the Fishman Natural One with endpin preamp. I can't remember if I had to solder the wires or not? It worked well in my other Taylor Dred that I gave away to my neice. The piezo quack is a term I've heard, but not experienced. I remember having a battery with the Fishman too since it's active not passive.

The K&K Pure can be installed in fifteen to twenty minutes if you capo the strings in place and remove only the bridge pins and lay the strings to one side still capoed. I have a little plastic guide tool I made for aligning the transducers into perfect position. Easy to make with some white poly material on a bandsaw and a 3/16th drill bit.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Bruce, any chance of a picture of the alignment tool? I'll have to be installed these things on two of the three next guitars I build, so inspiration would be nice!
Author:  Dickey [ Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Sure, I do recommend one change. Drill all the bridge pin holes through the tool and it helps you see where you are and need to go. I did one without the tool and one with the tool. Believe me, the visual clues are important, but then having the cavity for the transducer is really perfection.



This is actually a slice off my wife's cutting board, cut in half / resawed, then bandsawed to shape. Go ahead and drill the other four holes and you'll be glad you can actually peep in there and see where you are.

You may recognize the little blue paper diagram. It comes in the kit and I took it a step further gluing it to a piece of maple and sawing it out. I can pop it in a guitar and see if the transducers will fit in just a jiff...
Dickey38377.5441782407
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