Official Luthiers Forum!

I just attended the event at interlochen that was all guitar and more guitar
for 4 days. I want to report on this important event and put a bug in your
ear for next year.

In case you don't know, Interlochen is a small town in the woods in
northern Michigan. The campus of interlochen has an arts high school
where students from all over the world come to focus on artistic persuit.
In the summer there are many musical camps, concerts and learning
activities. The facilities are really extroardinary, with 2 huge
concert halls, one outdors called the Bowl and one indoors called Corson
auditorium, as well as several more intimate spaces. Most of the concerts
were in a place called The Dendrinos Chapel. There are dormitories and
small cabins where visitors stay. There is no shortage of well equiped
classrooms for audio visual presentations.

The faculty was John Wunch, Alex De Grassi, William Kanengiser, Bruce
Dunlap, Emre Yilmaz, Brad De Roche, Gohar Vandenyan, Lee Dyament,
John Stropes, Armin kelly and Dan Kelchak. A powerhouse faculty!!

I set up my booth in the exhibition hall next to the cafeteria with a couple
of other venders. I was there more for name exposure for my stringed
instrument (violin family) business rather than trying to sell any guitars
and I did make some good positive contacts and get one commission.
I left my booth unatended a lot of time and felt it was very safe. Gary
Zymnicki was next to me and had a very nice set of guitars. There was
another guitar maker and Brad DeRoche from Strings By Mail, That was it.
The vender room was really an afterthought by John Wunch and he did
admit that he regrets not persuing this with a little more forthought. So
next year could be much better. They left no time in the program for
vender time, only lectures, all day, for for days. But we did get to see
most of the players at our booths on their way to the cafeteria.

I really can't give an exhaustive review of the 4 day event but can touch
on my highlights.

Here are some photos.

KenMcKay38957.9646643519

Gary Zimnicki Booth. He brought an assortment of guitars. Two acoustic
archtops, an electric archtop, and two steel strings.

Alex DeGrassi playing one of Gary's acoustic archtops. We had a nice
intimate talk with Alex during a long slow period, We had him captive. Very
nice guy and great all around player, not just fingerstyle mastery.

You can see my booth behind Alex. In the corner is a String bass I made.

Gary Zimnicki has been making guitars
since the 70's and has made hundreds of custom instruments. I
learned a lot from him over the years.
KenMcKay38957.9858449074

I call this the "Fire Archtop". It is an electric archtop with laminated plates
and has a fairly decent acoustic tone. I am honored that Gary trusts me to
make laminated plates for quite a few of his custom electric archtops.


KenMcKay38957.993587963

Ken, that is really cool! I know of another chance for you to be a vendor also, I'll drop you an email and let you know. It's right in your neck of the woods, too! This would be on 9/16.
I met Gary once, and he is a good friend of Don carter, a canadian builder from Sarnia that I also know.

_________________
Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Thanks Mark. Maybe you could make it next year, it is a great institute.

This is during a listening test of classical guitars. Armin Kelly brought some
fine classicals to be played and heard.

William Kanengiser and Gohar Vandanyan tried two guitars then switched.

I have a bunch of important notes regarding what the players want, this
could be a new topic if there is interest.

Bruce Dunlap gave a couple lectures that were the highlight for me. He
taught me an invaluable lesson and allowed me to be as good as I choose on
my instrument...profound! Can you play Chopsticks on the guitar? He gave a
lesson in contrapuntal (counterpoint) which is simply playing two different
parts at once. Something most guitarists avoid but if you work on it, will
send your playing into the next level and beyond.




Bruce DunlapKenMcKay38958.0132175926

One more for now. John Stropes gave a great lecture on fingerstyle guitar
history and technique. He had it well organized with video clips of many of
the greats including Michael Hedges. Later that night he had a special video
presentation and tribute to the great Michael Hedges an Interlochen
graduate. Great stuff.

John Stropes

[QUOTE=KenMcKay]
I have a bunch of important notes regarding what the players want, this
could be a new topic if there is interest.
[/QUOTE]

That would be excellent Ken, Thanks for sharing.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Cool stuff Ken! Thanks for sharing.

_________________
Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

WOW Ken! Thanks for all the neat info and pics too!

I might be interested in this the next time around

Thanks Ken, great pics and information!

Ken...Good stuff! Thanks. And, yes, what do players want?

Thanks for the report Ken. I actually had a classical guitar ready and wanted to take you up on your generous offer to the OLF members of taking guitars to the show. However, you said you had agreed to not compete with another person who was taking classicals already. Maybe next time.

I think since this thread is moving along slowly I can just throw in the
"what players want" right here. So here goes:

[Edit note. The following statement was added for clarity: This
information is for classical guitars and is not meant to be applied to other
instruments]

I can't say I speak for all players of course, this represents my impression
based on these players and of course Armin Kelly who represents many
makers and players. I am attempting to direct any maker towards things
that are likely to lead to success in selling an instrument rather than
anything that may or may not advance the guitar in a historical sense.

Craftsmanship versus sound/playability: sound wins everytime.
Craftsmanship is impressive and can get a foot in the door so to speak. It
can grab the eye of a player and make him/her notice the instrument and
try harder to like it. Sound and playability win in the end. The classical
guitar world is very conservative, think black and white, think
conservatively in your choice of binding, rosettes, etc.

Cedar versus spruce: There is this notion that a spruce guitar is only a
shadow if it's eventual self when it matures. Cedar is mellow but doesn't
gain much over time. So if a player likes a guitar enough and it is spruce
then it carries a "future value"... listen and learn my friends [wink]. Armin
only likes European spruce but can't really tell the difference so make
your guitars from plain old spruce and drop the first word unless it is
European. [wink]

Maple guitars don't sell. There are always exceptions but this is generally
good advice.

Right hand feel is critical to a good player. Bill Kanengiser likes a stiff feel
and Gohar prefers less stiffness.

KenMcKay38958.9379050926

Ken, thanks for sharing this, and thanks again for your earlier offer to bring OLF member guitars to exhibit. A lot came up in my life that made it impossible for me to get an instrument to you (most notably a new baby), but I still greatly appreciate your generous offer.

It's always fun for me, as well, to hear about goings on at Interlochen (since I went to school there, as you recall). This guitar institute sounds like a great new addition to their programming and I will make every effort to be there as an exhibitor next year.

Thanks again.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

[QUOTE=KenMcKay]
Cedar versus spruce: There is this notion that a spruce guitar is only a
shadow if it's eventual self when it matures. Cedar is mellow but doesn't
gain much over time. So if a player likes a guitar enough and it is spruce
then it carries a "future value"... listen and learn my friends [wink]. Armin
only likes European spruce but can't really tell the difference so make
your guitars from plain old spruce and drop the first word unless it is
European. [wink][/QUOTE]

Ken, I want to personally thank you for this piece of information. It answered a question that I had filed away to ask friend who builds, but won't get to for some time. For me you answered my question perfectly!

Jeanne you are welcome. Keep in mind that the cedar spruce info is geared
towards selling a guitar and not getting a particular sound that you are
seeking. There are some beautiful cedar guitars of course.

Robbie, too bad about that, I would have loved to show your guitar. I am
from Colorado and when I get back for a visit I will look you up.

Todd, I thought of you when I was on the campus. It must have been a great
experience for you to go to school there.

A lecture at the Interlochen Guitar Institute August 2006 given by Armin
Kelly of Guitars International was called Hand-made Instruments: An
overview of instruments and their features.

This was a two session lecture where Armin gave a formal talk to begin
and then professional players were asked to play several of the guitars he
brought along from Cleveland. During the introduction Armin showed
some bracing patterns of Torres, Hernandez, Rodriquez, Fleta, Hauser I,
Fisher, Dammann, and Smallman and a few others. He then had some
tonewood displayed including some Brazilian rosewood, cocobolo, some
spruces and cedars. He made generalizations regarding their contribution
to sound or marketability. He showed a strong preference towards
rosewood and European spruce. Interestingly though the piece labeled
European spruce looked suspiciously like Sitka. Next we listened to the
guitars in in Dendrinos Chapel, an acoustic space that was very quiet and
well suited for a listening test.

Armin lectured from a dealers point of view but couldn't help throwing in
some comments as a player. I listened from a makers point of view and
what follows are my impressions. I hope they help any builders interested
in making and marketing a handmade guitar. My impressions are also
based on some personal conversations I had with Armin and Brad
DeRoche. More on this later.

During the first listening test in the Dendrinos chapel Armin brought out
two guitars, both made by the Swedish maker Fredholm. Both were
beautiful guitars with the same back and side woods but one spruce and
one cedar top. They were alternately played by Brad and Gohar as we
listened. Armin asked for general impressions first and then tried to get
us to answer specifically about some things that we were to be paying
close attention towards. These were balance, separation, sustain,
quickness of response, blending (harmonic balance and clarity), color
range (finger attack, timbre).

During the next session we listened to more guitars being played by Gohar
and Bill Kanengiser. It was a good learning experience.

Bill plays three guitars one a Humphrey another a Jacobson and one other I
can't remember. I asked him if he preferred the Jacobson over the Humphrey
since it has special intonation at the nut. His reply that that feature of his
Jacobson was so important that he had the Humphrey re intonated like the
Jacobson

More good stuff for makers. I hope.

Players want a guitar that sounds good to him/her not just the audience.
There has been an emphasis towards making a louder guitar using
different techniques such as double top, stiff back and sides, thin top
with lattice bracing etcetera. But Chances are a lot greater that your
handmade guitars will appeal to more paying customers if you stick to
pleasing the player first and formost. There was a very strong emphasis
pointed towards the Hauser I pattern by Armin. Bill had a maker say to
him once "I made this to sound loud to the audience not the player" after
which he thought "I wan't it to sound good to me"!

Even the best salesman can't sell a guitar if some basic criteria are not
met. Learn to get these things by changing variables in your bracing and
tonewood.

Ballance: is one E louder than another up the fingerboard? Is the 6th
string louder that the 1st etc.

Note separation: Play a little counterpoint part or have someone play for
you and listen to how two musical phrases (not notes) sound. Often a
higher phrase will be louder and a good maker can control this.

Quickness of response: Bill called this "bloom" and it is a huge factor.
Quicker is not better, just different...learn to control this. For example I
think spruce will give more of a BWAAA sounding low notes than cedar.
This is a biggie and the choice of material can have a great impact,

Color range: learn how a player attacks the string with the fingernail.
Learn about using right hand techniques to change the timbre. Now try to
control this with bracing. Words used to describe this are: bright, dark,
brittle, harsh, tinny, tubby, soft, light...

Blending: This is harmonic balance and I can't really claim to get much of
a handle on this. It has to do with clarity of a chord. Can individual notes
be heard. I am a little unclear on this, but it seems to be important.   

Random thought:

Carbon fiber may be used against you as a maker.
Trap doors are for makers not players. (having access to the inside)
Adjustable necks are not even on the radar screen. Focus away from this.
There is no "best" sound for all players so work on building your own
"signature sound". A phrase used by Armin several times.

Good luck in your building and persuit.

Very interesting stuff! Thanks, Ken.

My pleasure Carlton.
I went back and edited the first post where the subject reads What players
want. I had to write that I am only writing about classical guitars up until
now.

We had a nice chat with Alex DeGrassi about steel string "fingerstyle"
guitars but I can't say I got much useful information for builders. Alex
played a nice Lowden and a Trugot. By way of metaphor, his lower strings
were more like a tennis ball bouncing than a super ball. The low notes
had certain lack of sustain that I think matched the higher end. Good bass
violins and cellos also have this property.

The strings were light and allowed him to bend the note without bending
the string up or down. He showed us how to rock the left hand forward
and backward very slowly to get that sound.

Alex DeGrassi also uses the instrument to create percussion and there
were some interesting resonances that he utilized "since they were there."
One resonance was right midway on the shaft of the neck of his Lowden
which he hit with the butt of his hand. The note it produced was probably
below 70hz and could be clearly heard and felt in the back of the
auditorium where I was sitting. He said he can only get that sound from
that guitar and only in that tuning DADGBD. KenMcKay38958.9518865741