Official Luthiers Forum!

The story:

Well, I have recently purchased a handbuilt luthier instrument from an "up and coming" luthier based in the States.

I was searching for something that only a luthier can provide in detail...intonation, separation, balance throughout the fretboard, proper tuning of soundboard, etc.... This oppty arose....



This all said, the top is a very high grade (if not the finest I have ever seen) cedar, back and sides are of a type of Southern Ebony. Does anyone notice what specific type? It is a lighter ebony. This was an experiment it seems which has gone quite awry.. The guitar also incorporates a soundport (a feature I like very much).


As this is guitar #7, I was sympathetic and accepting of minor flaws. The fellow is very knowledgeable, has a bright future (I still do feel), and is without question a person of integrity.


The reason for my mail is this:


Within a day or so of it's arrival, cracks appeared in the back. It extends up the left bout, extending upwards, skipping the center, and continues towards the top.

Needless to say, it ruined my day.


I have attached images forwarded to him in our discussion. The image against the sofa is an image he sent to me prior to finishing. I used it
to show him it existed prior to its arrival....


There was no argument, in fact, he knew what it was and why, which was both reassuring and a bit frustrating as I think of it now. He clearly knowing what I wanted in this thing....


It is a particularly heavy guitar. The heaviest I have ever held!! I feel as if I am carrying a tree trunk.

The sides are particularly thicker than normal. I havent the dimensions at the moment but he did forward them.

Apparently he was aware of Ebony's tendency to crack.

His explanation was thus, the finish applied was a thin urethane on the back and sides. (Lacquer he does not prefer due to shrinkage, and I agree. Although a standard traditionally, it is just that, a standard that has been used traditionally and continued to be used today without much merit. Gutiarists/musicians *hate* change dontcha know.)


The top was french polished with 2 very fine layers of urethane for protection. Good idea.

These cracks in the back appeared a day upon receipt.

3 of them as shown, are very large and do go all the way through and can be viewed from within.

There are other fine cracks noticeable within, and on the same lower left bout which do not go all the way through.

He had stated that what had occured was the shrinking of the finish as it cured caused this to become noticeable now.


*THAT IS* this "check" as he originally *did* make me aware of which existed and was repaired and he states is completely stable, has now revealed itself.


This "check" (the 2 large lines/cracks) can be viewed within the soundhole and go all the way through therefore. What the difference is between a
"check" and a "crack" illudes me.



Here is an excerpt of his past email:

"I wanted to discuss one issue with you, however. Before guitars are built, it is customary to fill all surface checks, holes, cracks, grain inconsistencies, etc. with CA glue (you can read more about this on any of
the guitar/luthier forums). There was an area on the back that I filled and is somewhat visible in the finished guitar. The surface check is in no way going to cause a problem structurally (as it was filled with very
strong material before the guitar was even built), but you can see the indentation in the urethane. Again, it is slight and can only be seen at a certain angle in a certain light. It is equivalent to gutiars where you
can see where the backstrip/perfling/binding meet the body of the guitar through the finish (the finish will settle on these areas differently than it sits on the rest of the guitar because of the glue/epoxy that is used
to hold them in place). The issue could be alleviated by adding more finish and sanding, but I did not want to lose the beauty of a thinner finish and risk sanding through the finish on the other areas of the guitar. If this occurred, the entire guitar would need to be refinished and very likely would not look as good as it does. I do not think this is a big deal, but wanted to let you know what was going on."



Basically I am in need of other opinions here....

Needless to say they scare the Hell out of me and is quite dramatic in appearance.

Again, these 3 large areas are *cracks* not "checks" as described. They go all the way through?!

And now are effecting the finish.


Should I have it repaired professionally, back replaced?? Will it continue to grow, etc..?


I know only what I have read. This I know can be dangerous.


As a note, he as usual wished to amend and satisfy, and has basically (due to the high cost of shipping from Italy/Georgia) allowed me to basically come out of this with a free guitar more or less...

This of course is *not* what I signed up for or expected.
I of course have not been willing to touch it since.

Florence, Italy is very humid. I am uncertain as to what else will occur.

The surface within does make an obvious felt change of direction.

One can also view on the exterior what appear to be stress cracks. Others seem to be developing on that same lower bout. Are they stress related? Is the wood flawed? Will the sound change in time?




As I was intending to (needing to) sell my Ramirez for this, should I merely sell it as a "Luthier Special" with the Ramirez and search for a second hand luthier instrument of note??


Im at a loss...The instrument is ok. I have not played it enough to make many judgements as I have just strung it up again today. There are some errs on the fretwork, finishing could have been better, some excess glue within, and I have today noticed an open 5th string buzz.

It occurs only at that frequency as playing 6th string 5th fret produces same buzz at bridge.

No it is not headstock, string height, etc...the buzz is coming from bridge and occurs only at that frequency.

He used an assymetrical bracing system. IT may simply be due to humidity change, temp, dirt (it is strangely durty inside)...

And what exactly is the difference between a "check" and a "crack"??



I thank you all *very* much for your time and any thoughts offered. Unfortunately Italy is on holiday at the moment and I haven't anyone to ask!

P
Florence, Italy


PS: As a note, the problem as well is. I do not feel comfortable accepting his refund either. I will most likely tear up the check as his work and effort are certainly worth something here.


Yet due to good logic, the costs of shipping, and trying his best to accomodate he has said he thinks it best to simply refund practically all of the price of the guitar, I paying only for materials..

The sound is more refined than my current guitar.

But my concern is I will continually have to deal with these developing cracks throughout its life.

phppar38956.8600578704

Hello P,
I am so sorry to hear about your trouble. Obviously, the distance is what
is making this such a difficult situation. I would first like to explain the
difference between "check" and "crack". A check is a crack but with a
more specific definition - it is a term used to describe a crack that occurs
when wood is drying.

There are a couple possibilities for why the wood is doing this. I
personally suspect that the wood was not properly acclimated or dried
before your luthier started using it. Many different wood species can
make wonderful tonewoods; however, there are some woods that are
notorious for being unstable or developing cracks. When building with
these tonewoods, you have to really evaluate the particular piece and
make sure it is suitable for building a guitar from.

Another possibility is that he did not fill the cracks properely. Brazilian
rosewood and other wood species will often have cracks and voids that
need to be filled. If the luthier does a poor job at filling them, then they
would certainly show under a finish. As a general rule, a gloss finish will
tend to AMPLIFY every single flaw in the wood and make it very
noticeable.

It is hard to say for certain whether the cracks will continue to get worse.
However, I think it is fairly reasonable to expect that the guitar is
structurally sound. A local luthier would certainly be able to evaluate the
guitar's structural condition.

It seems like the fellow you bought it from is an honorable guy. I do
believe that if you aren't satisfied with the guitar that he should pay for
the shipping both ways - since you were not aware the guitar was in that
bad a condition. However, if the guitar sounds good, I would think just
paying him for his material investement in the guitar would be a good
deal.

Regarding the buzzing - fret buzzes can be difficult to identify. If you are
not a builder or repair person you will have a hard time knowing where it
is coming from. Most likely, it can be easily remedied for you by a local
luthier.

God bless friend,

Simon

(I also sent you a Private Message)

Dear Simon:

Many thanks for your reply. It was very helpful.

He did state that the wood was worked (checks repaired) and filled prior to using...that is, before the guitar was even built.

I was not aware ebony was such a fragile wood to work with, and cracking a common occurance...Apparently this being a poor wood selection on his part perhaps.

Again I believe he made the sides a bit thicker as result of this knowledge.

Also, no side bracing was used.



Honestly, I am still uncertain as to how to proceed....the distance being the issue above all I suppose here.

At any rate, I thank you again for your time.
It is much appreciated.



Best,
P

phppar38955.1032638889

Hi Phppar

I'm inclined to think that the wood has suffered extensively with the change of humidity.

It was potentially not fully dried Ebonies are mostly very dense (hence the weight)and take a long time to dry.

I have seen back crack like yours on a great many ebony instruments.

A sensible course of action would be to have a luthier in Italy look at the instrument and advise you on a suitable repair
if you visit the forum at Guitar Building Italy you will find many fine luthiers there. The forum is conducted in Italian.RussellR38955.2746527778

Hi Phppar,

Wow. What a major headache....

I will agree with the cracking occuring in the ebony as moisture is being lost.

My understanding is that ebony is slow to season. Years ago when clarinets were made of ebony it was common practice to allow the wood to season a very long time and allow the cracks to develop. Then the uncracked protions were cut away for building and the cracked portions tossed. A very expensive venture as the price of ebony for reeded instruments was and is so high.

The rule of thumb, so to say, was that if ebony (and teak even for that matter) didn't crack the first year, it wasn't ever going to crack.    Personally, I have not put that theory to test, however my ex-husband who was a builder/repairer of wind instruments believes it to be so.

Sorry to hear of your problem. What is to your benefit is that you are both communicating and both aware of the problem. Best of luck to you and I wish I had more to offer!

I just read a little more of the post here and had some more thoughts.
At the end of the day I guess you don't want to spend more time trying to
find a luthier to repair it.

At the end of the day the primary things here is that you have the right to end up with an instrument
you are happy with.

If it were one of mine I would pull it back, regardless of the shipping involved,
because I wouldn't want a guitar out there with my name on that was not up to par.

If you asses the instrument and see potential with the luthiers work,
then I would give him a list of what you consider the defects to be,
and give them a choice of rectifying the current instrument, or making you a replacement that is free from these defects.

Russell,

BINGO! You hit the nail on the head.....and since there is no quote button available on this thread (?) I will copy and paste:

"If it were one of mine I would pull it back, regardless of the shipping involved,
because I wouldn't want a guitar out there with my name on that was not up to par."

It's about integrity.

Phppar, this guy of 6 or 7 builds might be the nicest person around, but at the end of the day he should stand behind his words,his actions and his workmanship. It is the right and fair thing to do. Period.

But, people being people, we all have to live here on the 3rd rock ( Hey Evan, are we still the 3rd Rock?).

I hate to write this, but Phppar, you might be better off cutting your losses with this guy and finding a reputable repair person (ahem, OLF members, here is a chance to SHINE).

I guess I look at it this way: if he put the guitar out to you with issues and well, alledgedly unseasoned wood, what kind of a repair are you going to get in return?

I agree with most of what's been said here: he should take it back, because there was something wrong with it from the get-go. Shipping it probably didn't help, and it's not unlikely that humidity did the rest of the damage. Questions as to how it was packaged, what humidity it was built in, what kind of humidity control you're giving it remain.

As to Michael's points: his opinons on lacquer certainly do have merit; it's traditional, but it's got plenty of problems and flaws, like every finish. It's not the 'best finish'; no such beast exists. Nitro's got way too much mystique surrounding it and the arguments as presented (third-hand) are as good a rationale for using it as any. As for squeezeout, 'dirty' insides, etc...please don't ever look into some of the 'holy grail' guitars built over the past few centuries ;-)

Hi Jeanne

It was not my intention to question the luthiers commitment,
I would assess his position as being one of inexperience.
Not lack of integrity.

When starting out in the business of selling instruments it is a bit of a chicken and egg
situation, you need the experience of building instruments to move your workmanship up the levels
but how many instruments do you build before your start selling.

It seems to me the luthier has been honest about his experience, and lets face it the customer has probably
paid half of what he would he pay one of the more established builders.
I know from personal experience and from seeing the work of other guitar makers starting out
that there can be quantam leaps forward with each instrument they produce.

So I see it as a question of inexperience, rather than lack of integrity.

If this customer sees potential then I would risk another instrument on the understanding that it will
come back for a refund if it is not up to par, as he may well get something that exceeds his expectations,
and will have helped bring this luthier on.

Around the same point of my career, I had an instrument go out to a pro musician which he was not entirely happy
with, he telpehoned me and I of course offered a full refund, he said to me the sound is as good as I ever heard,
but the playability and finish are not top quality, he then gave me a detailed list of what he didn't like and the oppurtunity to correct these problems.
I redelivered the instrument and he was delighted, and in fact I am just making his 4th instrument, if he hadn't of done this with me
I would have not gone on to the level I am at now.

I didn't send the instrument out originally because I was trying to get away with it,
just simply I wasn't experienced enough, and hadn't fully developed the pro philosiphy.

Now if I have a problem on an instrument while I'm making it, it is assesed and if it can be rectified it will be, if I had to I would scrap a whole instrument,
rather than let it go out.

Hi Russell,

I sincerely did not mean to imply that you were questioning the luthier's commitment and forgive me for a post that made you feel that way. My comment and intention was far from that.

My comments were intended to invoke a sense of agreement with you as to your standing behind your product and your name! That is how I live my life daily and perhaps why I am one of the more requested teachers My signature is on that progress report and my collegues know they can count on me to send a student forward who is aptly prepared for 3rd grade and beyond.

Perhaps I was a bit sharp with my comments regarding cutting losses and seeking alternative means to rectify a situation. Since there are 3-sides to every story, I was simply attempting to make the best based on facts at hand. Forgive me.

[QUOTE=Jeanne] and since there is no quote button available on this thread (?) I will copy and paste:
[/QUOTE]

It's out there, you just have to scroll way out to the right to find it. The image was so long horizontally it pushed everything to the right.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Cracks happen...sometimes with exotics, there's no stopping it.

Take ziricote as an example. In my opinion, there aren't too many woods as
beautiful as Ziricote, but it's bound to crack eventually. Maybe not, but
more likely than not.
The question is, are you willing to trade off the beauty of the wood and it's
sonic properties for a few cracks? More than likely they will never effect the
sound negatively, but the wood itself contributes to the good part of the
sound. They can be repaired, but does it really matter except cosmetically.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Jeanne]
My understanding is that ebony is slow to season. Years ago when clarinets were made of ebony [/QUOTE]

Hi Jeanne, I wasn't aware that clarinets were ever made of ebony. Traditional wood has always been African Blackwood to my knowledge and it's unofficial nick name is "clarinet wood". I can see why ebony would crack if used for a clarinet.

HI Jeanne

I wasn't saying you said anything wrong at all , and I apologies if it came across that way
you prespective is equally as valid as mine, so nothing to forgive.

I realise you were supporting my comment, just wanted to be clear I wasn't critising this luthiers approach.

Russ

Is it me, or am I the only one that thinks that phppar has the right to have his virtually BRAND NEW guitar free of defects?

Whether it sounds the same or not, I think he is entitled to a solution.

Brock Poling38955.526712963

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Brock, I agree

Mike
White Oak, Texas

I agree too, that he should have a guitar without the crack, that plays properley etc.

But whats a defect ? 99% of Hand mades I have every seen and 100% of factory made guitars have what I would call defects.

If that guitar was one of mine I would be begging the customer to send it back and let me repair it (if possible) or replace it. There was either something wrong with the wood (i.e. to much moisture content), something wrong with the environment or something wrong with the construction.

I do know this much, I sure wouldn't want someone out there showing one of my guitars around that had failed so obviously. I agree with Brock, the customer has every right to ask for a resolution that he is happy with.

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

This is unfortunate for all involved but a great lesson lies within here for everyone. There are many great and wonderful builders out there in guitar land and many are here on the OLF. Many dream of the day when getting a "commission" or being able to realize full or part time income off their work is somewhere around the corner. The transition from hobbyist to professional as many here can attest is not an easy jump. Knowledge obtained through experience about woods, proper aging, and a host of structural and aesthetic values come in time with hard work and through trial and error. There is nothing at least to me that I have found overly easy about the art of lutherie and although a student for many years, still a hobbyist. The success stories are few while a desire to be successful in this business is shared by many. I have seen many first instruments posted here on the OLF that are exceptional, as well our friends here like Hesh who just completed #10 does exceptional work and I personally would be willing to "commission" from him (If I purchased guitars).

I have seen many a discussion over the past year about "learning the craft", carving your own neck vs. buying one, knowing how to hand plane to thickness top, backs & sides vs. using equipment, bending sides vs. buying pre-bent, fingerboards, bridges, and the list goes on an on. This is not intended to be a criticizm toward anyone in their approach to building because we all can do it the way we like, however, with the suppliers product lines we have available, you can just be an assembler which I don't really know if that is the same as a Luthier. I wish I could play like Eric Clapton or Jimmie Hendrix (if I played electric), and I can or could if I was willing to learn, practice and put in the time (maybe not as good as either).

I feel for both parties here, but hope that all my friends here on the OLF are patient with their learning curve and skills in this art form and don't get in to big of a hurry to get into the guitar business.

I hope it all works out for both builder and customer

Mike
White Oak, Texas   

Thank you all for your time, thoughts, and replies.

Immeasurably helpful.

I continue going back to it. Looking it over. Of course a flashlight in the dark easily reveals they on areas go all the way through. Obviously the "black lines" represent darkness....

He has been always completely open with his thoughts, being very objective and honest regarding his abilities.

It is just a bad luck situation (to a large extent) I feel. However, that the wood was used is a question mark in my mind...

But also, as said above, all ebonies apparently have this tendency to crack. Perhaps better now than later? Yet then again, in this possible year window I have (per above) what if others form?!

Should they remain stable I would be easier with the situation, but who is to know.

Having restrung it only 2 days ago (on new strings) I am unable to judge well its sound.

It is very balanced and warm. The soundboard will open up in time and the sound should if anything improve from being very good now.

I think I will truly like the qualities of sound assisted by the ebony here.

But I just don't know. To say I will keep it and have the problem worsen in time would leave me stuck in a bad place.

One point is that ellusive description of perfection...or perfectionism.

Beauty and perfection to some are not beauty and perfection to another...

Several little things I must say are simply not perfect, which could be, quite easily...


He had taken it to a couple high end shops and had it played by others of talent (as he always has) all of whom apparently gave it wonderful reviews.

Also, as stated above wisely by DonWillians, is that apparently all ebonies will crack eventually.

If they are stable and do not effect sound, or can be repaired easily. Should I keep it if I am pleased with the playability, sound, etc.

Would I want another in Macassar or Ziricote? Yes...I would if possible. I too like to experiemnt with exotic woods. It is very beautiful and the sound is unique.

As RussellR stated, at the end of the day what is important if I am happy with the instrument overall. This is a decision I must make.

...and advice I am requesting.


.....he would do whatever pleases me.

Again, I must look into a luthier's advice..yet here in Europe it is very expensive, and whether I trust anyone here is another issue.

There are no guarantees for anything here. It is not like the States. Only those who have lived here could understand...

Again, everyone's thoughts are truly appreciated.

p
phppar38955.9712384259

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=Jeanne] and since there is no quote button available on this thread (?) I will copy and paste:
[/QUOTE]

It's out there, you just have to scroll way out to the right to find it. The image was so long horizontally it pushed everything to the right.

[/QUOTE]

Well, there that pesky button is!

Thanks Brock - this gives new meaning to a l-o-n-g post!

[QUOTE=Larry Davis] [QUOTE=Jeanne]
My understanding is that ebony is slow to season. Years ago when clarinets were made of ebony [/QUOTE]

Hi Jeanne, I wasn't aware that clarinets were ever made of ebony. Traditional wood has always been African Blackwood to my knowledge and it's unofficial nick name is "clarinet wood". I can see why ebony would crack if used for a clarinet.[/QUOTE]

Hi Larry, I have pasted an exceprt from "How Products are Made".....

".... French makers began making clarinets out of ebony, a heavy, dark wood from Africa, in the mid-nineteenth century. But gradually the preferred material became African blackwood, which is similar to ebony but less heavy and brittle......Most modern clarinet bodies are made out of African blackwood (Dalbergia melanoxylon). There are actually many different trees in the African blackwood genus, such as black cocus, Mozambique ebony, grenadilla, and East African ebony. It is this heavy, dark wood that gives clarinets their characteristic color. Inexpensive clarinets designed for students may be made out of artificial resins." (How Clarinets are Made, Vol.3, Page 1).

I have further read that grenadilla is specifically the wood of choice in clarinets currently.

Just goes to show different woods are being explored all the time for various useages and with the current rates of deforestation it has become a necessity.

Thanks for your post, I learned a few new things!


Jeanne38955.5765740741

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Cracks happen...sometimes with exotics, there's no stopping it.

Take ziricote as an example. In my opinion, there aren't too many woods as
beautiful as Ziricote, but it's bound to crack eventually. Maybe not, but
more likely than not.
The question is, are you willing to trade off the beauty of the wood and it's
sonic properties for a few cracks? More than likely they will never effect the
sound negatively, but the wood itself contributes to the good part of the
sound. They can be repaired, but does it really matter except cosmetically.[/QUOTE]



This is my question above all and my point of writing mostly.

How will these types of cracks effect sound? What kind of repairs are typically required here?

these kinds of things....

Also, they appear (as can be seen in photos) as black lines. Is this the original filler?


As a note I was not seeking investment here, and although serious player who may even perform, I am not by any means a concert guitarist. (I play only classical by the way. This is a classical guitar.)

As in fine art, even a masterpiece being sold second hand rarley commands the value it deserves.

This is something I do seriously, but on the side for pleasure.

He has always been clear about his knowledge and position as a developing luthier.

He is very knowledgeable regarding finish and construction methods, and one does feel confident based on his knowledge alone.

As stated above, perhaps the imperfections I mention are harsh. Yet, they were my initial reaction.

He simply wished to sell a couple of the guitars he was finishing to buy more materials as funds for the work were getting low.

I can (and we all can) sympathize....

He was very pleased with every aspect of the building and final result prior to shipment.

These little things I did not make mention as yes, I paid a fine price for a handmade instrument and could see the effort.

Then again, it should not look like effort perhaps....


It is simply a bit of bad luck (and perhaps inexperience) that caused this in judging the wood used it seems.

I cannot blame him in any way as he has always been up front with me. Yet again, these cracks or checks strike me as quite serious.

He stated these "checks" were all filled and repaired prior even to its use in building.

Does this make it more stable as it was all known beforehand, or is it a lack of experience being shown in a bad choice?

I have taken my research far deeper than the typical client to try and be fair.

I do feel his time is worth something here....and actually feel a bit uncomfortable with a refund *and* the instrument.

best,
pphppar38955.5979976852

At the end of the day it is hard to say without seeing the instrument, but by the looks of the photograph it has moved since the finish was applied, it could be that it is just bad luck and it has cracked and will go no further, at that point it is simply a question of gluing the crack, applying cleats to the back to reinforce, and then making good the finish. If the wood was too wet when it was built, it will continue to dry and you may find that other cracks and splits appear.

Whilst not a definative test if you put your hand inside and place your palm against the wood it should not feel cold, if it does it isn't dry.

I think you are acting in a very patient and considerate manner, but at the end of the day I think you should seek a solution that leaves you satisfied with the end product, if that is to have the faults rectified locally, return for repair, or ask for a replacement instrusment, or refund, you will have to judge.