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Fish glue test
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=8182		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  rlabbe [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:10 am ]
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The other week I bound a guitar using fish glue, because of it's high tack but long open time. As usual, it made quite a mess, and some glue ended up on some extraneous wood lying around.

A day or two later, I noticed these blobs were still soft and sticky!

So I did a test. I took 2 pieces of cedar, planed a fresh surface, glued and clamped them. I left them clamped for a week in a humidy controlled room (I'm running around 42-45%) and tested the result this morning.

First thing: the squeeze out (there was only a bit) was still tacky. I wouldn't say it was soft, exactly, but it wasn't bullet hard either.

The joint broke as you would expect any well glued surface would - at the wood, not the surface of the joint. A bit of scraping didn't reveal any sticky points.

Nonetheless, I'm unimpressed. Squeeze out from my hide glue turns crystalline, and it shatters when I try to carve away. The fish glue squeeze out was a sticky, soft blob.

I'm throwing the bottle away. It could be a bad batch, I don't know. It might be a bit old - the bottle is about 5-6 months old at this point. Or I may be worried about something that isn't important - our joints should fit tight anyway. But I'm not going to trust a glue when the squeeze out is still tacky a week later.

Thoughts?
Author:  David Collins [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:58 am ]
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What kind of fish glue are you using, and how old is it? I drip blobs of the
stuff every day and it is always hard and crystalline and breaks like glass
by the next day. My shop is in the basement of a building, and even when
I have neglected the dehumidifiers I've never had anything similar
happen.

The only fish glue I've ever bought is direct from Norland by the gallon. I
keep the gallon refridgerated, keeping some at room temperature in a
small bottle for everyday use. The only thing I've ever noticed is that
within 6 months to a year at room temperature, it starts to work a little
differently. When it's fresh I can put a drop on a finger on one hand,
touch it to one on the other and stretch a bunch of silk like line about as
far as I can spread my arms. The older stuff won't do this, but I've never
checked if it effects the way it dries. I've really only noticed this on stuff
that has sat around unrefridgerated for a while after I've switched to a
new batch, so I haven't used it by this point to see if it does what you've
described.

This is also a reason I prefer to order direct from the manufacturer. I
know Lee Valley and a few others repackage and sell Norland fish glue,
but I've always been leery of how fresh it may be. I don't know how
quickly they sell the stuff, and I have to worry they may buy 10 barrels in
2001 that could take them until 2006 to go through before reordering.
Dunno, just a theory.David Collins38955.4590509259
Author:  Shawn [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:58 am ]
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When I first used fish glue as part of the Romanillos guitar making course I asked about the shelf life of fish glue and was told that fish glue that remains sticky is probably old and should be tossed. As David mentioned when it is fresh it will produce threads when sticking your fingers together. When it is dry it is very crystalline, just like hide glue. I was very skeptical of fish glue have used almost exclusively hot hide glue for years but was impressed by its similarity to hide glue.
Author:  RussellR [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:18 am ]
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I have never seen fish glue, but had assumed it came like hide as granuals you mixed. Does it come as a liquid then ?
Author:  CarltonM [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:34 am ]
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Russell,

I haven't used it, but yes, it is a liquid and remains so at room temperature, which makes it quite interesting if it dries like hide. No prep. time!
Author:  LanceK [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:11 am ]
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Roger, I have just started using it, I bought a bottle from LeeVally. The first thing I did was put a long bead on a piece of wood, then a bunch of different sized drops. I let is sit over night and the next day it was glass hard. I ran it through my thickness sander and it powered off like HHG.
I suspect you have a bad bottle. If I do continue to use it I will do as David and get it dirctly from Norland.

Lance
Author:  CarltonM [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:19 am ]
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Fish glue--the caviar of adhesives!!!
Author:  RussellR [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:20 am ]
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Thanks Carlton

I was thinking of it for joining the plates to the Rim as the extended working time would be useful.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:33 am ]
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I but mine from Norland by the gallon and pour it off into smaller bottles which I freeze or put in the fridge (except for the bottle I am currently using). Last semester during my classical class we did a test on some scrap. We glued some pieces together and at the end of the four hour class we couldn't break the pieces apart with a hammer. It is very convenient becasue you don't have to cook it but it takes a bit more to clean it up than regular hide glue cause it is sooooooooooooo sticky!
Author:  GregG [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:07 am ]
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I've never heard of guitar building with fish glue....how does it compare to HHG for strength and hardness, anyone know? I love the idea of longer open times and would definitely switch to this glue if it proven. I noticed the shear strength of fish glue at approx 3200 psi, how does that compare to Titebond and HHG?

Greg
Author:  David Collins [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:58 am ]
Post subject: 
In my personal experience it has seemed equal to hide glue in just about
every aspect but open and curing time. I know that I have heard other
people who have mentioned problems with humidity resistance, or what was
mentioned above. Over the last 4 years or so, I've used it for hundreds of
bridge reglues, headstock repairs, top cracks, loose braces, neck resets,
fingerboards, etc., and have never seen any of the problems a few other
people have mentioned.

It's quite possible that it's performance suffers quite severely when it passes
it's shelf life, but I suppose you might expect the same from hide glue if you
left it in gel or liquid state for a year or so. I buy, store and use it just like
Robbie does, and order a new gallon ever 8-12 months, so I've never had to
witness the consequences of expired glue.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:11 pm ]
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Thanks for all the info on the various adhesives thats been on the forum lately. One of these days I'm going to move beyound LMI's stuff and tightbond.
Close to using HHG on bridges any way.
Author:  rlabbe [ Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:23 am ]
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Hmm, I bought from Lee Valley, maybe it was an old bottle by the time I got it.
Author:  crowduck [ Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:46 am ]
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I checked the Norland website and find that they have a $25 minimum on purchases. A 1 gallon pail is $22 (I think) which includes UPS shipping, so it looks like a gallon is the best option.

CrowDuck
Author:  David Collins [ Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:01 am ]
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I typically just order one gallon and tell them to bill me $25 + shipping. The
list price has gone up $2 since I ordered last, but I guess it doesn't make a
difference anyway.
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