Official Luthiers Forum!

As I am preparing for my first build I am considering resawing some wood for the project. I have a Minimax MM16 bandsaw and have resawed wood for other projects (not guitars) so I am not new to the process. If I do cut my backs and sides is there any advice anyone can offer? Is anyone else cutting their own back and sides?

Thanks!

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH

Brother, have you come to the right place. Others will be along shortly for the education to begin.

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

What are you cutting? What blade are you using?

I have cut hundreds of b/s and top sets. It's my "hobby". Sawing tonewoods is similar to other resawing, but the differences are mainly in the tolerences you end up working at. It depends on the board I'm working with, but I try and saw backs anywhere from .135" to .160". Sides generally around .115" to 125", often a little thinner. I've gone as thin as .100" for backs, but there is no room for error! I won't do that again.

Make sure your saw is running as well as possible. Use a sharp (ie. new) blade. I like to flatten after each pass on the saw. If everything is going smoothly and the board is behaving, I may joint my side billet every other pass, or not at all.

Make sure the boards aren't cupping or twisting as you remove material - which is often the case. I like to run my back billets (both surfaces) through the sander after each pass, so that I always have a flat, true surface to work with. Again, if everything is going well, I will relax this a little.

You can cut things fat and ignore the frequent flattening, but then you will end up spending a lot more time at the thickness sander later on. It's just a matter of style and preference. My technique may not make sense for a wood dealer, but it suits my building style just fine.

Don't get too greedy with those special boards! My tendency is to always try and maximize yield, and it doesn't always work out the way you hope. Trying to squeeze that extra set will sometimes backfire if the blade wanders or you encounter a problem. IMO, it's always better to have 5 good slices, instead of 6 crummy ones. The extra cut will save you if you encounter a defect in a slice, and otherwise will become headplates, bridge patches, etc.

As far as blades go, there are many discussions about that on the net. I like the Timberwolf 3/4" AS-S, but they don't last all that long in rosewood and ziricote. I was resharpening these for a while, but it is too time consuming. Now I just buy new ones - a lot of them. The Woodslicers work really well in woods like mahogany and will definitely increase your yield. For general use, I like my Laguna resaw King - which I believe is carbide. I also have the an older Timberwolf carbide and have tried the Lenox blades as well.

I have an older Euro-spec MM16, and it's a great saw. 12.5" of resaw, 3.5 HP, etc. Make sure everything is square and running true. Set your guides carefully. Make a tall sturdy resaw fence, don't over feed and when the blade starts to struggle - put on a new one. This saw will push a dull blade through just about anything, but you don't want to push your luck.

Have fun!

Steve Spodaryk38957.9616203704

I won't blab on any longer, but there is a lot that could be said about tonewood selection, layout, composition, grain direction, runout, etc.

Trying to maximize your yield of backs and sides out of a single board is a fun puzzle to solve. Particularly when you have something really special you want to showcase.

Steve

[Quote=Steve Spodaryk]What are you cutting? What blade are you using?[/QUOTE]

I have not picked out wood yet. Since this is my first acoustic I am considering buying something that I can cut a few sets out of. This will give some wood to work with bending without fear of screwing up my only set. As for a blade, I have a Lennox Trimaster that is almost new. What are you using for fence? I built a "point" style fence for resawing which seemed to work well...but this is based on my limited experience. Do you have recommendations where to buy billets? Do OLF sponsers sell this or only precut sets?

Thanks again for the info.

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH

I live in southern Illinois, and there are several sawmills around that cut maple,cherry, walnut, etc. These all make fine guitars, and can be purchased by the board foot quite reasonably. I use a 14" bandsaw with a riser block. It's not the greatest saw in the world, but it gets the job done. I have been using a point type fence as well, but I will probably start using a full fence soon.
Another source for wood is the local tree trimmers. If I see someone cutting a tree that looks promising, I can usually get a 3' log for free to cheap. I then cut it up with a chainsaw into billets then resaw and dry the green wood. Some of my best curly maple came from my neighbor's yard.

Have fun, and be careful there is a lot of blade exposed when you are resawing.

Al

Brad,

(1) Don't be greedy. I made myself very angry ruining a couple sets of very nice wood by going too thin early on. I have since decided that there is nothing wrong with getting 4 pieces of wood per inch. I spend a little extra time at the thickness sander, but I don't mind.

(2) I think you should buy or make a good fence and set it up properly. I've never tried the "pivot point" method of resawing, though. It's just hard to beat a good straight fence.

(3) Wood sources: Depends on where you live and what kind of wood you want.

Brad, good idea to practice on something that isn't real valuable. Could be anything, really. Makes sense for both sawing and bending. The Trimaster will handle anything you can throw at it.

There may be sponsers who sell billets - but I don't know for sure. If you look online, checkout Gilmer, Cook Woods, eBay, etc. You're not far from Berea Hardwoods in Middleburg Heights. Probably worth a trip to see some nice stock in person. Lowes, Home Depot, Woodcraft, Rockler, and many lumber yards also carry exotics and many domestics that can be used for building.

It's handy to know the moisture content of your wood, but you can work without a moisture meter. I like to let boards acclimate as long as I can before sawing, but it isn't required. After sawing, you will likely need to sticker and stack them. Turning wet boards into dry sets can take some patience, finesse and care. My recommendation is to find some nice dry, well quartered mahogany, maple (or similar) and go for it. Keep it simple.

I occasionally use a point style fence, but only when I have a board that is too cupped or twisted to flatten easily. My preference is for a sturdy right angle design. Use whatever you feel comfortable with, but the tall fence gives me the best results. I run this against my rip fence, and clamp it to the table. It's about 8" tall and very square to the table.



Use push sticks and standard safety precautions.

Steve

Brad, I use a fence setup like Steve does but my fence ends just past the cutting edge of the saw. The reason is that if the wood has internal tensions it will bow or cup as it comes through the saw pushing the board away from the fence. I find this helps my thickness consistancy

Is the Trimaster a carbide blade? With carbide I would set up a full fence, since you can pretty much count on it not to lead, or at least not to change lead direction while you are sawing.

With a steel blade (I usually use the Timberwolf 3/4" AS-S. I tried a Woodslicer once and it was dull out of the box and ruined a good block of curly maple), I have found that after you carefully check the lead angle of your blade and set the fence accordingly, it ends up being for naught, since as soon as the blade gets to work on 8-9" of hardwood, it gets hot, and gets hotter on the side that is toward the wheels (maybe not so much if you have a really big saw, but for sure with a 16"), and the lead direction starts changing rapidly as you saw. So I go with a bullnose fence with its nose pointing at the teeth. That way I can adjust to changes in blade lead as I feed the board.

Recently I have been making guide cuts on my table saw using a 7-1/4" Freud Diablo blade, which only takes a 1/16" kerf. Takes a bit more time, but that is insignificant compared to keeping the cut from wandering. I surface after each cut, since that is the face that will go against the table saw fence.

Also, make sure the edge of the board that will be resting on the table has been jointed square to the face that goes against your fence or bullnose guide.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I'd add to what Steve said, but since he pretty much taught me about reswing, not much point. We have the same philosophies regarding yield and such. My new setup allows for tremendous accuracy, and a finish that almost looks planed coming off the saw with the Resaw King blade. I also will do a light sanding if there's any sign of cupping. If I get a slight high spot on the blank after a slice, sometimes I'll just take it out with a sharp cabinet scraper.
It sure won't hurt to practice on some less expensive woods just to develop a system that works for you.
My fence is 4" high at least, but I'm planning on making a taller fence like Steve's.
Bob the Zootman will probably chime in here eventually too. I've learned a lot from him as well.


Don Williams38958.6057175926

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I have resawn lumber for years on my 14" delta with
a riser block. I use a fence like SteveS shows.
I find i get the best cuts by making sure my fence
lines up with tracking of the blade cut. My fence has to be set at a angle to the miter slot.
The angle changes slightly from blade to blade for me.
Now maybe it is not a issue with your saw or others.
But for me it is a must. Hope this helps.

Tom

_________________
http://www.moriciguitar.com

[QUOTE=Steve Spodaryk] For general use, I like my Laguna resaw King - which I believe is carbide. I also have the an older Timberwolf carbide and have tried the Lenox blades as well.
[/QUOTE]

Steve, I have a 1 inch resaw king on a laguna 14 se, I have never been able to get good results sesawing thicker than about 4 inches. I get cupping. When I use a cheaper 1 inch blade I get great results, but rough. I've discussed this with laguna and even switched blades but I have never been able to get accurate resaw with the king, it's smoothed but cupped, which is a worse problem than rough. I've adjusted for drift, squared the stock, tightened the blade etc., but still cupping. Seems like the lack of set on the resaw king causes it to drift in my case. I actually started using a 1.3 tpi blade for 7 to 10 inch resaw, it leaves a rough surface but very straight.

Since you use a resaw king and are definitly more of an expert than me maybe you have some suggestions, I would like to get some more use out of this $150 blade.

What you are describing sounds like a blade that isn't sufficiently tensioned.

I would also question whether your saw can really handle a 1" carbide blade. Even if it fits your guides, most carbide blade aren't meant to flex to that radius. Maybe the Laguna folks know something different. Or maybe they just think they do.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I've heard that for the 1" and higher carbide blades, an 18" wheel is a minimum, and even with the 18", getting good results may be difficult. So I guess I'm agreeing with Howard.

I have to agree with Howard on this, at least mostly. Cupping is usually caused by a combination of lack of tension and power. If you have enough tension and power, it shouldn't cup. The question arises as to whether that saw's frame can sufficiently tension that blade.

I have the Laguna LT16-HD, and regularly cut with the 1.25" Resaw King blade, and the wood comes off smooth as off a planer, and I don't have cupping issues. This saw can properly tension that blade. The Laguna 14" saws are not as beefy as the 16" saws, and I would have my concerns about using a 1" blade on them.

Honestly, they should never had sold you a 1" blade for that saw. I wouldn't go more than 3/4", and that's if you have at least 2 hp minimum to drive it.

I couldn't tension my old Rockwell 14" saw enough to use a 1/2" Lenox Trimaster...

BTW, Laguna claims that the Resaw King is not carbide-tipped, but a high carbon grade steel known as C-8. That looks like a carbide designation, but it can also be a designation for high carbon steel.
Don Williams38961.6081828704

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I use the Re-saw King regularly and the band is more flexible than any blade that I know of. 14" dia. wheels shouldn't be an issue with this blade. As Howard stated your problem sounds like the blade is not tentioned enough.Bobc38961.6048842593

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Here's an easy way to check your blade tension on the cheap:



First, set up the guides pretty far apart (for example, 10 inches; the further, the better).

Then, set up a ruler to measure the sideways deflection of the blade, and pull sideways on the blade with a spring scale with a few pounds.

By measuring the deflection (d), and knowing the spring scale force (F), and the height between guides ( h), you can calculate the tension (in pounds) :

T ( pounds) = ( F x h ) / ( d x 4)

Then, you can take the cross sectional area of the blade you are using A = ( thickness x width) and figure out the blade stress ( S) in psi :

S (blade stress in psi) = T / A

For the width of the blade, you should use the width to the bottom of the tooth gullet, which will be a little less than the total width.

You can tension your blades to 30,000 psi safely. I usually end up at about 20,000 psi, and that works fine for me.

If your saw can't tension the blade to at least 10,000 psi, you should probably switch to a narrower blade so that you tension it to a higher stress.

Also, if you ever want to measure guitar string tension, the same method works fine for that, also.


Phil

Oops.

I forgot to mention in the last post (measuring bandsaw blade tension) that you should to set up the ruler (and pull with the spring scale) midway between the top and bottom guides. Otherwise you won't get the right answer.

Phil

[QUOTE=Bobc] I use the Re-saw King regularly and the band is more flexible than any blade that I know of. 14" dia. wheels shouldn't be an issue with this blade. As Howard stated your problem sounds like the blade is not tentioned enough.[/QUOTE]

I agree, it is an extremely flexible blade. I've tensioned the blade until I can't turn the knob any more, it's so tight I feel like the weld might break. Lagunna even suggested that I might be over tensioning, I can't understand their reasoning on that though.

Actually the lagunna cheap 1 inch blade is far thicker and less flexible, and it resaws perfectly straight on my saw. However it turns a lot of wood to dust along the way and leaves a rough surface. The only reason I want to use the king is to save wood and make thinner resaw cuts.

[QUOTE=Tom Morici] I have resawn lumber for years on my 14" delta with
a riser block. I use a fence like SteveS shows.
I find i get the best cuts by making sure my fence
lines up with tracking of the blade cut. My fence has to be set at a angle to the miter slot.
The angle changes slightly from blade to blade for me.
Now maybe it is not a issue with your saw or others.
But for me it is a must. Hope this helps.

Tom
[/QUOTE]

Yes your right, and most of what I've read suggest cupping is do to drift on the blade. It drifts in the center and is contrained to the top and bottom by the guides. But I go through the drift proceedure for lining up my fence each time I change blades.

[QUOTE=Phil Marino] Here's an easy way to check your blade tension on the cheap:

....

If your saw can't tension the blade to at least 10,000 psi, you should probably switch to a narrower blade so that you tension it to a higher stress.

Also, if you ever want to measure guitar string tension, the same method works fine for that, also.


Phil
[/QUOTE]

Thanks Phil, I'll give it a try

I could have this wrong, but drift is the tendancy for the blade to wander in the cut - ie. not cut straight. You need to adjust your rip fence to account for this - so that the fence is parallel to the cut. Blades drift for various reasons, some do - some don't.

Cupping is due to inadequate tension - as diagnosed by Howard, BobC, Don, and other folks. If you're cranking your tension as high as the saw can go, you're compressing your spring. When the blade starts cutting, it stretches, and without any spring to take up the slack, it will distort and cause the cupped cut. I regularly hear/feel my spring taking up the slack when I make cuts. Very important.

General rule of thumb is 15,000 psi for most blades, and 20-35,000 psi for bi-metal and carbide. I can run my 3/4" Resaw King at 15k for softer woods and crank it up to 30k for the really demanding stuff. I suspect your saw just can't handle those loads - especially with a 1" blade.

The Iturra tension gauge is a nice tool for measuring this. Not completely necessary, perhaps - but it's extra insurance when resawing expensive woods.

Steve