Official Luthiers Forum!

There has been a lot of talk here lately about cnc parts, necks, etc. I was reading the new AG magazine tonight in the article about the new Alvarez Yairi ($3000) and there was a statement that cought my eye. It said that they use no CNC on the handmade Yairis. To me, the implication was that the CNC was relegated to assembly line production and they wouldn't use it on a handmade guitar. Maybe I read too much into it, but that is what came to my mind. If CNC is going to be associated with "mass produced", you might want to reconsider using it if you are making "hand built" guitars. Did anyone else see the article and draw the conclusion that cnc was a "no no"?

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Every one has their own definition of a hand built instrument. I personally enjoy the carving of necks and bridges, I make my own kerfing, and sometimes I harvest logs to resaw into tonewood. I cut my own fingerboards from lumber and slot them on a mitre box. I take special pride in the guitars that have every wood part completely made by me. But if I were building guitars for a living, or if I had a backlog of orders, there would be nothing wrong with using CNC necks or bridges, and no reason to not buy kerfing. I build because I enjoy building, so there is no pressure to meet delivery schedules, or to keep labor down. Now if a builder is using CNC necks because they are intimidated by carving necks and bridges, all I can say is it's only wood. Don't be afraid to make a few bad necks, just don't try to sell them. My first few were on the chunky side. Some I recarved later, and others ended up in the trash, but it didn't take long before my necks started coming out very nice.
As far as an answer to is CNC good or bad? It just depends on what you want.

Al

I didn't see the article, but I'll throw in my thoughts.

We could have a long philosophical debate about what level of modern technology you can use and still call guitars handmade, still call yourself a craftsman. But what you can call your guitars or yourself isn't what matters. What matters is what your customers think. And they don't reach their conclusions after a philosophical debate --- they just get kind of a gut sense about it based on what they see.

Compare the Benedetto videos with the videos on the Taylor website. Both used jigs and power tools extensively on nearly every part of the instrument. Benedetto even acknowledged that he had his inlay for his headstock plates routed with a CNC machine, just like Taylor does. I don't think anyone has ever kept score about how much CNC/power tool work goes into a Taylor vs. a Benedetto, but I think just about anyone watching both videos would agree that Benedetto was a master craftsman handbuilding guitars, while Bob Taylor is a master machinist with a nice factory. (I know, I know, Bob is a great luthier in his own right, but my point is that he's not making too many guitars by hand nowadays.) You don't need to debate the fine philosophical points of modern technology to know a craftsman building a guitar by hand when you see one.

Haven't all of you been asked these questions:

(1) "How do you shape the neck?"

(2) "How do you make the sides bend like that?"

(3) "How do you get the frets in exactly the right place?"

(4) "How do you make those little purfling lines?

(5) "How do you get it so shiny?"

Now, if you have ever responded that you shaped the neck by hand with a rasp and a file, you know you get a different reaction than if you said it was done on a CNC machine. If you have ever told someone you bent the sides by hand, or explained how you leveled and buffed the finish, or how you slotted the fretboard, you know you get a different reaction than if you were to say you used a CNC machine or paid someone else to do those tasks.

That's in no way a knock on those who use CNC or outsource their finishing. Your guitars probably have nicer necks and finishes than the rest of us.        But I think more than a few people buying custom guitars are looking almost as much for the romance of the process as for the quality of the finished product. And, for some, a big part of that romance is knowing that your craftsman is building all these challenging parts "by hand." What does "by hand" mean? Well, it probably means different things to different people, but not many people would say something built by CNC is built by hand.

Those like Yairi who go to the effort to do these tasks on our own without the help of CNC would be fools not to make the most of that in marketing.Kelby38958.0387847222

It's just another tool in the arsenal. Not to be used as a crutch, but to advance the art, not necessairly high out put.
Is it really that different than guiding a 3 hp router along a fixture by hand?Jim_W38958.041087963

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

This has been brought up before, and I think Al's pretty close to the mark, it really depends on what you consider to be hand built.

What bothers me is that some people imply that using a machine to help build your guitar somehow loses the human touch, well let me tell you right up front that it takes more time and effort to get that machine to do what you want than it takes to just cut it out on the table saw and get it over with. A CNC Machine is nothing more than a router (like the ones we all use today) with an electronically drawn jig if you will, it simply follows the path that the builder programs into it, to be honest it's just like making a jig. But in the end it's just a tool like a tablesaw or a jointer or a bandsaw, there's no mystery to it at all.

30 years ago people had the same ideas about computers, they endowed all types of mystiques to them, my Dad still won't touch one to this day. But 20 years later and they have become appliances in our daily lives, CNC is much the same way. There's no mystery to it and to be honest it's a ton of work to get it up and running, but the thing is that I can turn out parts for my guitars that are consistent, it allows me to multi-task in the shop (well it will when I get it finally running ).

I designed my guitars in a cad program when I first started but I used standard tools in my shop to make all the parts based on those drawings, does that somehow mean that they where not hand built??

I don't think so and I think the argument is pure sophistry, in order to build something in CNC you have to be able to understand the subject, I have yet to buy any models for parts or gcode programs to make necks and such. I have to built and refine what I want and refine the models until I get it where I'm happy. I don't really see that as being any different than what I would do without a CNC machine.

In the end I'm still going to do all the assembly by hand, join the top and back, bend the sides, brace it, kerf it, close the box etc etc. The cnc just makes things like making the neck, the mortise and tenon and areas like that much easier because I don't have to spend an extra day fiddling with them.

Alvarez may not be using CNC but I bet they have a ton of jigs to make all those little parts and I don't really see a difference between those and using a CNC machine to make parts.... like I said sophistry...

I'll leave you with this, I had a flamenco player in the shop this weekend, he had a drop dead wonderful flamenco he had made in spain and he wanted me to work on the tuners. In the process we talked about the shop and the CNC since it was there, he told me that to him it really didn't matter. A good builder puts his heart and sould into everything he builds and it shows, so to this player it really doesn't matter how the parts get made.

I think he's right...

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

I went to the Cdn equivalent of NAMM on the weekend, picked up a PRS DVD with the shop tour on it. Right at the start PRS himself starts talking about the process, and then says "its essentially a handmade guitar". I laughed .. but I guess to each his own. Well, someone had to PUT it into the CNC right !!!! thats hand work.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I have no issue with CNC being used in the production of guitars, as long as it is excepted that a part manufactured by CNC is just that, a standard part produced by a machine. If we want to use the fact that someone loaded the part in the machine and worked out the paths as being hand work then Taylor are a prolific hand maker.

Don't get me wrong there are times when I'm sure the tighter tolarances a CNC can work to may have an advantage, but it is difficult to compare the skill of even my brand of luthiery where I use Routers, Bandsaws, Thickness Sanders etc. To the skill of the master luthiers from say the Spanish School and many other fine craftsmen who make guitars entirely by hand, and certainly you can't compare them to CNC.



I will retire Twenty paces and put my hard hat on now.

Boy Ron, I think you open a can of worms here.

It is interesting to read the answers though. You can tell by the tone of the answerer (is that a word?) whether they use any CNC parts or not.

Personally, I don't think it matters much to the guitar buying public in general. Just look at the number of guitars Taylor and Martin have sold.

I don't use any CNC parts in any of my guitars, with the exception of a few I build with pre-carved necks. I kinda like doing all the work myself. But I'm not in any hurry to get them done either. If I had a 2 year backlog I'd probably be calling John Watkins on a daily basis.

Does this mean I think CNC is bad? No way! If I could afford it I'd have one myself. Otherwise, I guess I can always buy stuff from John.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Hmmm.... tough one!

Only my opinion for all its worth, may not even be worth 2 cents!

Where does it stop? CNC necks, then braces, profiled back sides, rosette chanels, pre-shaped braces,bridges (sorry Hesh ) etc...

Well looks to me going that way one might as well pick a well serviced kit from LMI or Stewmac and put it all together! Whats the diference? the materials are the same, and pretty well made... so why go to all the trouble with jigs, tools and the rest?

Well, to me handcrafted..handmade, means just the opposite.

How about next time someone has a commission we send the customer to LMI and have them select the kit with their kit wizard and then you put it together?

I don't think that would go over well with many customers!!

I was tempted before to buy a neck or too from some of our advertisers, but it didn't seem right to me to claim later that I "handcrafted" the whole guitar...

like I said before...just my opinion.peterm38958.5113078704

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

[QUOTE=Kelby]
(1) "How do you shape the neck?"

(2) "How do you make the sides bend like that?"

(3) "How do you get the frets in exactly the right place?"

(4) "How do you make those little purfling lines?

(5) "How do you get it so shiny?"[/QUOTE]

1. Chainsaw.
2. Telekinesis
3. Just luck I guess
4. Cut them from planks with a handsaw
5. That's a Trade Secret.
Don Williams38958.5202662037

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Kelby]
(1) "How do you shape the neck?"

(2) "How do you make the sides bend like that?"

(3) "How do you get the frets in exactly the right place?"

(4) "How do you make those little purfling lines?

(5) "How do you get it so shiny?"[/QUOTE]

1. Whitlin' knife.
2. Pavlovian Response Mechanism...they're trained.
3. Darned if I know...
4. Whitlin' knife.
5. Lemon Pledge.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

CNC certainly has its place... even with handmade guitars.
I am having my pearl logos cut by John W with his CNC. There is no way I
can cut that fine a pearl and route that fine of a channel by hand.
Even with this, I still consider my guitars handcrafted.

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

[QUOTE=Kelby]
(1) "How do you shape the neck?"

(2) "How do you make the sides bend like that?"

(3) "How do you get the frets in exactly the right place?"

(4) "How do you make those little purfling lines?

(5) "How do you get it so shiny?"[/QUOTE]

1) MY HOME MADE DRUM SANDER

2)MY HOME MADE SIDE BENDER

3)MY HOME MADE FRET SLOTTING JIG AND TEMPLATE

4) i bought them from Shane!

5) heuh, i'm still learnin' Man!

Serge Poirier38958.542962963

C'mon Williams, you're totally out of line here...everyone knows Lemon Pledge hasn't been used for years. I read it in a magazine. People have moved on to Liquid Gold.   

Hmmmm...let's see, Jim Olson's guitars have significant CNC in them, and he seems to be squeakin' by on both reputation and tone. Guess 'ol Jim can look forward to a sharp decline in his backlog as soon as people learn that he's only "assembling" his guitars - which any old dope can apparently do. Look, at the price point we're talking about, if a guitar is a dud,it doesn't matter what name is on the headstock or how much handwork vs. CNC went into it (at least not for very long)...it will fall out of favor fairly soon. If it's a winner in tone and aesthetics and playability and reliability...again, I don't think the general public really cares about the amount of handwork that went into it (Taylor is proof of that, and so is the CA Guitar).

So here's a good way of looking at it:

Alvarez Yairi uses CNC to manufacter the cheap, entry level guitars they've built their repuation on.
Now they want to sell a high-profit guitar, but they need to overcome the cheap, entry-level image to do so.
So they belittle the CNC work that helped them create the very image they now want to overcome.

It's all very confusing, and makes my head hurt.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Here is my take. If you advertise that all parts are handmade then you are misleading the client. However someone that uses cnc'd necks or bridges may be making a economic choice after all time is money. If the components meet the high quality standard that all of use must set then as long as you don't' advertise that all parts are handmade then I don't see an issue.

A much larger percentage of makers take advantage of pre-manufactured components such as bridges, pins, and truss rod covers than one may think. Does this mean that the instruments they build are semi-kits or that they are not handcrafted? Of course not. The real measure of hand crafted instruments is and in this order, musical quality, fit & form as in quality of jointery.

Lets say my blanket went out on me for a while so I contracted with BobC to provide my back and side sets to me pre bent. Is the product I provide the client from these sets less than hand crafted?

Nye Sayers could take this all the way down to, "Do you do your own thickness sanding? Do you cut your own wood sets?. Do you use only had tools?"

For me anyway the thing that sets the grade is the quality of the finished instrument. I sometimes carve my own necks I some times buy necks from Watkins Guitars. I recently have designed a new bridge and had John CNC them for me. I feel no remorse that a client is getting less of a handcrafted guitar either way. In fact I have a client right now that knows that I am using a CNC neck from John on his commission, and frankly that fact is of zero concern to him, as long as he gets an instrument that plays and is built to the specs he issued, assembled, finished and set-up to the quality expected. I truly suspect that 98% of our clients would and do feel the same way.

My conclusion is I can use some CNC parts and still build a handcrafted guitar.MichaelP38958.5575347222

[QUOTE=Kelby]

(1) "How do you shape the neck?"

(2) "How do you make the sides bend like that?"

(3) "How do you get the frets in exactly the right place?"

(4) "How do you make those little purfling lines?

(5) "How do you get it so shiny?"
QUOTE]

1 - You know, its tough to find a piece of wood that looks exactly like a neck. but its my job.

2 - Bend ??? Why bother, I just cut them out in that shape.

3 - Measured someone elses, like everyone else does - way easier than doing the math - you think i'm Einstien or something

4 - its actually done with a really fine paint brush. The good guys can make it look like shell. I heard the guy that does D45s last name is Picasso.

5 - Yep, used to be Pledge, but I am into Mop'n'Glo these days. Its WAY faster.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

[QUOTE=Bill Greene] C'mon Williams, you're totally out of line here...everyone knows Lemon Pledge hasn't been used for years. I read it in a magazine. People have moved on to Liquid Gold. [/QUOTE]

Well, that WAS a trade secret, but now someone's gone and told everyone.

Man, pretty soon folks are gonna find out we don't make the tuners either.

Oh....shoot!

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Agree with Michael and Bill both!

there is a place for CNC to an extent...also, if you claim your guitars are totally handmade....then they should be!

The problem is that lots of high volume guitar makers (not to name any...)claim their guitars are handmade but most ot the parts are CNC made, laser cut and then assembled at an assembly line!

where do you draw the line?

Michael, I too if press for time would turn to Jim Watkins for a neck ( which I know from many of you to be as good or better than as any of ours') or bridges and don't see anything wrong with it...

But, once again where is that line drawn?
peterm38958.5796527778

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

How long's a piece of string?

I suppose it comes down to "the division of labour" principle. I like to think that I make "handmade instruments" but I have no plans to make my own fretwire, tuners or cut saddles and nuts from bone. So "pedantically" mine are not truly hand made. But then again do you have to mine and smelt your own metal mixes to make the fretwire and herd and slaughter the cows to get the bone to comply? Or live in a rain forest to grow and cut down the timber etc. etc.

Hand made to me implies one person responsible for and executing the completion of the whole instrument and using their judgement on what "components" they buy in pre-made - this definition would include a kit guitar as well.

Some people hate carving necks - to me this is one of the most sensual and satisfying parts of the build, no two necks will be exactly alike but they will all feel great.

If you use tools then you are in control of them and adapt/adjust how you use them to match the material in hand and the end result. With CNC's - as far as I understand them - the control is in the computer programming. An equally valid skill - especially if you adapt the programming to make the best use of the material in hand rather than just grinding out the same specs irrespective.

One of my favourite lines is the derivation of manufactured - "manus factore" or made by hand.

The end judgement is in your satisfaction in what you do as a maker and what the customer is looking for in sound and build.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Can O'Worms is correct.    As far as the market goes, if 98% of the people don't care, and that's who you are building for, then it doesn't matter. But, in the high end, there are discriminating buyers whom, I believe, expect all wooden parts to be hand crafted by the builder. I'm pretty much on the same wave as Peter. There is a point you reach in using "pre-shaped" or "pre-serviced" parts where it is indistinguishable from using a kit.     Not saying that's necessarily bad, if the market wants it, but, to me, it isn't "handcrafted". It's just assembled by hand.

I see nothing wrong with jigs if the builder makes the jig and the builder uses the jig, and he's controlling the tool, his hands are still doing the crafting.
Farming out part production may be necessary to produce for the masses, and that's OK, but to me: I think any step of production that the builder is capable of doing well, should be done by the builder. If the builder needs/wants something beyond his ability to produce, I see nothing wrong with getting help.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I think that guitar building ranges through the whole spectrum, with hand tool individual luthiers at one end and full CNC factories at the other end. Most of us will obviously fall somewhere in the middle of that range. The rest of it seems to be either marketing talk or a justification, neither of which has much inherent value.

It is a tough call no doubt about that.

Dave like you I buy Fret Wire, Tuners, End Pins, Bridge Pins pre manufactured, but then I don't claim I made them !

In my opinion and it is just that, there is a whole world of difference with CNC, to a router for instance as ultimately the computer makes the part, not saying thats wrong, just different.

I do believe there is a market acceptance of CNC made parts, as pointed out, some of even the very high end makers use it to good effect.

What worries me is if we create too much of an acceptance for CNC, when for instance Taylor make a full on push for the high end market, as the chineese manufacturers squeeze them from the bottom up, we may just have shifted the market to their exact area of expertise.





RussellR38958.6257407407

I guess you can all work out where I stand on CNC parts, to me "hand built" means as far as possible just that, I think Joshua has the right balance. As far as possible I like to make every part I can from scratch, but I'm not having to make a living from the process, nor do I have customers to please and a competitive market to try and master.

So, I don't get all precious and irate about people who use CNC, to make necks, bridges etc, that's for them to decide. But, where does hand built stop and hand assembled start. No one could call a Martin or Taylor production guitar hand built just as no-one could call one of Joshua's guitars production made. The problem come when deciding wher the boundary lies.

That said it is the sound that matter!

Colin

PS. Having just spent a couple of hours chiselling and filing to get a cherry neck started, one of John's CNC necks is starting to look very attractive!

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.