Official Luthiers Forum!

Saw this on e-Bay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220022095 348&sspagename=ADME:L:RTQ:US:1&rd=1

Maybe you guys should rethink your pricing...

Well, I'm off to build a couple of more guitars with Sergei de Jonge. If I get the time, I'll upload some progress photos. Would you guys like that?

Looks like for $20k you get a highly personalized label:



I wonder how much extra Aj would charge to fill the pores on the headstock and buff the finish?

I bet if you threw in an extra fifteen grand, he might even install some binding!   

Just in case my smart alek comments aren't clear, here's the fine print: I'm not knocking the guy's guitar. As a project by a seventeen year old in high school woodshop, he should be very proud. But regardless of whether he has talent or potential as a luthier, his business ethics are way off. It's not right to put a product like that out with a $20k price tag. Even with his disclaimer "I just want to see if someone will buy it." Maybe there is a sucker born every minute, but that does not justify ripping that sucker off.

It's hard enough for small-time luthiers to gain the public's trust and confidence. It does not help to have people like Aj creating a public impression that builders (or at least some builders) jack the price far beyond the fair value of their instrument just because they think someone might be gullible enough to pay it.

Wow... At that price, I would expect Waverly's....

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Perhaps he/she is just fishing about to see what they COULD get for it if someone put a bid out there, not really wanting to sell it. Maybe just seeing what inquiries they get as well.

But, then again, there are those who will pay an exorbitant price for something just to have bragging rights.

They certainly don't appear to be a frequent "flyer" in the E-bay circuit.....

Jeanne38961.7084259259

I don't think I have ever heard of a fish-bone saddle...

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53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

I have my doubts that he will be moving to sunny Calaforina any time real soon

Negative comments below:

I think it's an injustice to the guitar building world to put something of that lack of quality out there for that kind of money, as a serious offering or otherwise. There's nothing about it that has any merit, except in his mind.
Now if a guy like this were to come on here and say, "I built this in high school...it was my first guitar." We'd all be encouraging, and rightfully so. For a first effort it's still pretty weak, but at least he's not pretending that he's going to become the next big name in lutherie. Doing what he did takes a lot of nerve.

I question his state of mind to tell you the truth. No rational person would actually seriously try to sell a guitar like this.

Gotta love those rectangular linings...and maple braces!

Sheesh....gimme a break. There are too many people out there breaking their backs to build a guitar as well as they can, for all the right reasons. This guy is openly trying to take advantage of someone without all their faculties but with lots of money. He even seems to feel justified in doing so. "Help me move to California". He's not realistic.

Call me harsh, but sometimes I just can't be nice about things.

Sorry....
Don Williams38962.411087963

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I see it as a publicity stunt.

And by all accounts, it seems to be working.

Can't wait to see the sheet-aluminum electric . . . not.
Michael McBroom38961.7460185185

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Live to Play, Play to Live

You guys are terrible! I think that guitar is top quality and would rival many guitars I've seen out there. I am actually thinking about stepping up to the plate and paying the $1.99 he's asking for it!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Well his first beats mine like so many out there! i'd give him some money so he doesn't show his first so often!

I for one hope he gets it. $20,000 sounds like a fair price for all the love that went into it!!!

Because you know... you just cant't put a price on that!Joe Beaver38961.8720023148

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Joe, its fair to ask a good price for your love and amount of time spent, but its another thing to ask for $20,000 for some "guitar" and justifying the price with "please pay for my move to California"!

I want to move to Monaco....so my next guitar will be up for sale on Ebay for $100,000

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

As a father of a 17 year old I know that sometimes you have to bite your tongue. Heck, in High School shop I made a letter organizer (horrible) and my Mom loved it. At the age of 47 I am going to build a guitar kit, which I approach with quaking knees. So while it is not cool to ask for so much $, everyone knows it is just the spouting of a teenager, and kudos for him to have such a healthy ego. I wish I was so brave and foolish to make such a silly mistake at that age.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

I don't know...at 21, he should have a little more wisdom than that.

On second thought....well, heck, I wasn't all that wise at 21 either.

To me, if he was going to put a guitar up for $20K on eBay, he should have at least done a top-notch job to make some kind of case for the price. As it is, it doesn't even rival a $200 guitar.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

*shakes head in wonder*

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]

Or: He is just trying out the idea that people will buy any thing on eBay.....

[/QUOTE]

Two words.....Slim....Whitman....

Folks will buy anything if it's put in front of them a sufficient number of times to convince them it's a good deal...but, isn't Ebay's longest auction 10 days? Not NEARLY long enough for this one!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

You guys hit the the nail square on its head! I listed my guitar on ebay accordingly not even knowing about this forum. Maybe it was to get the attention of a respected community soo hidden? Will anyone buy my guitar for 20k? No! Will this guitar ever be for sale again? No! I had a good arguement with a man I'll refer to as "Simon" through ebay a couple days after I listed the guitar. He didn't understand that I know exactly where I stand as a luthier and regardless of what happens on ebay and my aquired "experiences" I will be building/repairing guitars in the L.A. area within five years. The pictures don't do this guitar justice and I'm well aware of ALL of its flaws which there is a laundry list of. People told me I had a talent when I finished this guitar and I had a hard enough time trying to construct the tools possible to complete an acoustic guitar with no help and one picture of a metal-tube mounted to a wood board and a torch to form the sides. I had to create my own bracing techniques which were not very thought out...I learned more about musical instruments in my high school woodshop, by myself, than I did the entire year and a half I worked in the "guitar department" as a guitar sales associate at Sam Ash! Say what you want about my "mistake" listing it on ebay. What do I lose? A dollar fifty...maybe? Feel free to comment more or whatever you want to call it...I'll entertain ANY questions! ~Aj Shafi

Welcome Aj.

You certainly are to be commended for tackling a project like this in your high school shop class. And don't worry about your mistakes; we have all made far worse along the way. Everyone's first effort has lots of room for improvement, and no one was knocking you for making mistakes.

Hopefully, it is clear that people's criticism was more directed at the fact that you put your work out for sale at such a high price. Many people here (myself included) feel very strongly about not putting your work out for sale until it reaches a certain quality level. Putting your instruments out for sale prematurely is bad for the industry because we all want the buying public to be confident that handmade guitars are high quality guitars.

Even more, it hurts your reputation, and if you want to go into business as a builder, your reputation is all you have.

Let's say I were to sell my first archtop guitar. As much as I enjoy that guitar, let's face it --- it was a piece of crap. So let's say I sell it at a bargain price to some buyer who doesn't care that it's a piece of crap. He loves it. But he lets his friends play it. The friends have no clue that it was my first guitar, and they have no idea that my guitars have improved enormously since then. They just know that they played one of Kelby's guitars, and it sucked. Now, let's say I want to sell one of my more recent guitars, a good guitar, and I have a prospective buyer. The buyer looks for my name on the internet, and comes across a comment that "I played one of Kelby's archtops once, and it sucked." No sale. No matter how much my skills improve, no matter how many guitars I build, that comment by that player would pop up in the search engines everytime someone does a little research on Kelby's guitars.

Now, I have never sold one of my guitars. Just recently, I built a guitar for one of my kids, and it is the first guitar that I would consider good enough to sell. (Obviously, I won't sell it, because it was for my kid.) It's the first guitar that, if I put it out there, I would be proud to have my reputation based on how people perceive that guitar. Even still, one of our forum sponsors --- LMI --- recently invited applications for luthiers to exhibit at the upcoming Healdsburg guitar festival next August, and I reluctantly decided to hold off (for now) because I want to establish myself a little more before exhibiting at something like that. (Maybe I'll feel differently as Healdsburg approaches.) The biggest mistake a new builder can make, IMHO, is to get his work out there too early and establish the wrong kind of reputation.

Bottom line, yes, you have a lot more to lose than the $1.50 listing fee. In the business world, everything you do goes on your permanent record. In the business world, we call your permanent record your "reputation." You only get one, so be very careful with it.

Hang out here and at the other luthier forums, and you will learn a lot. Sell your instruments after, not before, you hone your skills.

Welcome to the OLF Aj!

Yup, your first guitar looks way better than mine and i'm not even shy to show how ugly mine is for i have learned by myself also, with pics from websites, no measurements whatsoever from a plan, i just drawn the contour of my old Ibanez Dread and went at it, the hard way, i made it with some oak and cedar plywood, laminated maple neck from recycled furniture, the darn thing cost me about $20 but what i have learned while building those first jigs and the guitar itself is PRICELESS and will follow me for the rest of my life.

So Aj, you can really be proud of that first guitar, in fact, when i see it, i'm envious of your talent!

Here's my first BTW!



Serge

Welcome to the OLF AJ.

Don't Take any of these comments the wrong way. This is a great group of guy and a few gals. Stick around and let us see others you have built.

Kelby is exactly right. Sadly I know this because I have to explain it to my wife evreytime I finish a guitar and tell her I'm keeping it...

Welcome to the OLF Aj!

Glad you joined us - we ARE a friendly bunch, as long as you have GAS and not gas

I am certain this tread did give you an idea of the range of thoughts, perceptions, and ideas that people have when one presents themselves in an "over-the-top manner. Your enthusiasm and price were certainly over the top!

Mistake? - no, but perhaps a valuable learning experience can be drawn from this.

You have every right to be very proud of your first build...it may be better than someone else's first build, heck even their 10th build but you presented it in a spirit and passion for which you should be commended.

I have just recently taken receipt of my first kit - I should be so fortunate to have a first build as nice as yours. And I am certain I will have a laundry list as well, but mistakes happen and you move on and hope you keep the lesson not the bitterness.

As for self-respect, you got it going on! Just don't ever let it get clouded by any other emotions or be influenced by those with ill-intentions.

So, here is my question for you....ya got 5 years before you go to CA.....are you going to build some guitars between now and then and if so - what?