Official Luthiers Forum!

I was just lurking around the LMII and stew-mac web sites and noticed that CITES (convention of international trade of endangered species ) has now put restrictions on the exporting of mahoganny outside of the USA...
Queensland maple is used a lot for necks in Australia but I was hoping to use mahoganny .....looks like thats going to be impossible in the future...

Gilet Guitars in Sydney can supply mahogany neck blanks..theyre about $Aus55 a piece.

Grant,

I cant see any reference on Stewmac or LMI websites to the effect they wont export mahogany outside the US.

All I can find on LMI site is this: "Genuine Honduran mahogany used to be plentiful but it is now nearing CITES treaty protection."

Cheers Martinkiwigeo38962.3799652778

Havent looked on either site for any notices ( I dont buy mahogany on the net), but Hon Mahogany went on CITES in 2004 - so in actual fact, without the proper paperwork, its not supposed to be shipped outside the country its already in, if its preban wood. Same as braz, although lots of it still gets shipped around regardless.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I was just looking at the new LMI catalog this morning. They DO have a statement in there about not shipping mahogany outside the U.S. any longer.Dave Rector38962.3989930556

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

martin, thats strange .....when i click on either site...everything mahoganny either back and sides or kits says "restricted cannot ship outside of USA"...

I'm sure other hardwood companies may still be shipping but I'm wondering what happens when it reaches customs here in australia..

I have only noticed this change on both of the mentioned sites in the last week...

Anyway I've decided to place an order with Gerard Gilet. Will be easier gratay38962.4035648148

[QUOTE=gratay] Martin, thats strange.....when i click on either site...everything mahoganny either back and sides or kits says "restricted cannot ship outside of USA"...

I'm sure other hardwood companies may still be shipping but I'm wondering what happens when it reaches customs here in australia..

I have only noticed this change on both of the mentioned sites in the last week...

Anyway I've decided to place an order with Gerard Gilet. Will be easier [/QUOTE]

whoops , sorry this got posted again....when i start quoting myself its time for bed. gratay38962.4065277778

[QUOTE=gratay]

I'm sure other hardwood companies may still be shipping but I'm wondering what happens when it reaches customs here in australia..

I have only noticed this change on both of the mentioned sites in the last week...

Anyway I've decided to place an order with Gerard Gilet. Will be easier [/QUOTE]

All very strange, mind you I dont buy mahogany from the US when I can get it fairly easily here in Australia. Wonder where Gerard is getting his supply.

According to a bloke I was talking to at Anagote timbers in Tempe (south Sydney), Gerard gets his neck blanks from them for considerably less than what he charges us. Anagotes say that they still have a couple of cubic meters of mahogany in stock but say they won't be getting any more. Though, this same species of timber is growing on plantations in Fiji and is of commercial size, so I suppose it's just a matter of time until it finds it's way into the marketplace. The CITES ban might make this stuff more economically viable and we'll see some soon.

Interestingly, Gilets are using a lot of new guinea rosewood (Narra) for their necks which they also get from Anagotes. Nice timber to work with, makes a good neck, and costs about a tenth the price of what gilets charge us for a mahogany blank (if you buy it from a non-tonewood dealer). The lighter colored stuff is about the same density as mahogany. Rings like a bell too.

I wouldn't stress too much about neck blanks, it's the supply of mahogany back and side sets I worry about. Might have to get used to the African stuff for now.

Only Mahogany grown in central and south America is on the CITES list; plantation stuff, not s'much. It's legal to export, but needs to be accompanied by paperwork, like so many woods now.

Honestly, ain't nothing wrong with the African varieties for backs/sides...

As Mattia mentions, Big Leaf mahogany isn't banned. It's listed on Appendix II which applies certain controls. Here's some info I snagged from a press release. Do a Google search on mahogany CITES and there's lots of accurate facts available.

CITES trade controls to take effect for mahogany


Geneva, 11 November 2003 – Internationally agreed trade regulations for big-leaf mahogany will enter into force on 15 November. This tropical timber generates over 100 million dollars a year in export sales, making it one of the world’s most valuable forest products.

The controls were adopted one year ago by the Conference of the Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), which has now 164 member States. The neotropical populations of big-leaf mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) will now be listed on CITES Appendix II, which requires that shipments of this timber be accompanied by a CITES export permit.

“Illegal logging and unsustainable export levels are threatening to render big-leaf mahogany commercially extinct in the near future, a trend that has been reflected in recent years by rising prices,” stated CITES Secretary-General Willem Wijnstekers.

“By relying on the CITES permit system, exporters, importers and consumers of mahogany can be confident that they are using only legally and sustainably harvested timber. The new regulations will also benefit local and indigenous communities, which until now have not received their fair share of the income from mahogany sales,” he said.

Admired for its high quality, beauty and durability, mahogany is made into luxury furniture, boats, expensive panelling, musical instruments and other wood products. One cubic metre of big-leaf mahogany can fetch some USD 1,300 on the international market and one tree alone can produce more than USD 100,000 worth of high-quality furniture. In the year 2000, Latin America exported some 120,000 cubic metres of big-leaf mahogany.

Big-leaf mahogany thrives in dry tropical forests ranging from southern Mexico to the Amazon basin. It can grow to 70 m, with an average height of 30-40 m, and trunks can reach 3.5 m in diameter.

The mahogany range has become fragmented, many populations have declined dramatically and the building of access roads for mahogany lumbering has encouraged broader deforestation. Populations of big-leaf mahogany have declined by over 70% in Central America since 1950. The species is already reported to be commercially extinct in El Salvador, Costa Rica and parts of South America. The other two species of Latin American mahogany – the Cuban mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni) and Honduras mahogany (Swietenia humilis) – are also now commercially extinct. Today, the major natural stands of big-leaf mahogany are in Brazil, Bolivia and Peru. Plantations have been established in Fiji and other countries, but the CITES listing will not apply to them.

The leading importers of big-leaf mahogany are the United States – which alone accounts for some 60% of the entire market – the Dominican Republic, the United Kingdom and Spain. The Appendix-II listing will enable importing nations to better assist export nations with checking the legality of shipments and ensuring that the mahogany trade is fully transparent.

For exporting countries, an Appendix-II listing will provide the controls, information and tools they need to manage their mahogany resources and ensure that trade bans or commercial extinction are not the next step. CITES permits are only issued if Government-appointed Management Authorities can confirm that the timber has been obtained legally and independent Scientific Authorities certify that its harvesting is not detrimental to the survival of the species. CITES Authorities in both the exporting and importing countries are to monitor the shipments and verify the validity of each CITES permit.

Additional background information

CITES, whose Secretariat is administered by the United Nations Environment Programme, was adopted in 1973 to address the threat posed to wildlife by international trade. Unregulated international trade can push threatened and endangered species over the brink, especially when combined with habitat loss and other pressures. CITES accords varying degrees of regulation to more than 30,000 plant and animal species depending on their biological status and the impact that international trade may have upon them.

CITES provides three regulatory options in the form of Appendices. Animals and plants listed under Appendix I are excluded from international commercial trade except in very special circumstances. They include all the great apes; various big cats such as cheetahs, the snow leopard and the tiger; numerous birds of prey, cranes, and pheasants; all sea turtles; many species of crocodiles, tortoises and snakes; and some cacti and orchids.

Commercial trade is permitted for species listed in Appendix II, but it is strictly controlled on the basis of CITES permits. This Appendix includes all those primates, cats, cetaceans, parrots, crocodiles and orchids not listed in Appendix I.

Finally, Appendix III includes species that are protected within the borders of a member country. An Appendix-III listing allows a country to call on others to help it regulate trade in the listed species. This Appendix also requires CITES documentation. Six Latin American states had listed their populations of big-leafed mahogany in this Appendix before it became included in Appendix II.

Yes, It does indeed look like hard times ahead for American Mahogany. I think I just might stock up.

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Grant, youve started a very useful thread.

So am I understanding things correctly that if I want to ship, say, an old solid-body mahogany Gibson electric, like an SG for example, outside this country, the CITES ban can result in the instrument being confiscated?

I've got a nice stash of old Honduran that I bought from a neighbor. Probably been sitting in his garage for over thirty years. I've been planning to use it for neck wood. If I understand things correctly, I guess if I do make necks out of it, I'll need to make sure that the guitars that use it are sold domestically.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

[QUOTE=Michael McBroom] So am I understanding things correctly that if I want to ship, say, an old solid-body mahogany Gibson electric, like an SG for example, outside this country, the CITES ban can result in the instrument being confiscated?

I've got a nice stash of old Honduran that I bought from a neighbor. Probably been sitting in his garage for over thirty years. I've been planning to use it for neck wood. If I understand things correctly, I guess if I do make necks out of it, I'll need to make sure that the guitars that use it are sold domestically.

Best,

Michael
[/QUOTE]

You might want to check first, but I believe that Appendix II stuff (like Mahogany) only has export restrictions if we're talking about raw timber; manufactured objects can still cross borders without problems.

G'day all. My first post here after lurking for a few weeks. Looks like a great forum and I've learnt a lot so far from you kind folks.

I'm just getting back into building again after a 20 year hiatus and have been buying some wood from local sources.

That Fijian swietenia is being sold here in Australia at AFT in Melbourne.

We've built a Tele thinline from it and as far as the workability it doesn't appear to be any different from the Honduran stuff I was building acoustics with. (mind you I've lost a few brain cells in the last 20 years)

We've re-sawn quite a bit of it ready for some acoustics so I can't vouch for the stability of it as we haven't completed any yet but it certainly looks promising and the price is very reasonable.

Cheers

Reg

_________________

------------------------------------------------------
Bob Connor
Geelong, Australia

Welcome to the OLF Bob!

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Geday Reg,

Welcome to the OLF, have you any contact details for AFT or a web site?? I am in WA and would like to investigate the Fijian wood a bit closer.

Cheers
Kim

[QUOTE=larkim] Geday Reg,

Welcome to the OLF, have you any contact details for AFT or a web site?? I am in WA and would like to investigate the Fijian wood a bit closer.

Cheers
Kim[/QUOTE]

Yes ...I was wondering that very thing as well

Hi Kim

Australian Furniture Timbers are in Port Melbourne
and have a web site at

http://www.afttimbers.com/home.htm

Nice bunch of guys and have an interesting range of wood. Here is what I have found there to be of interest to luthiers.

BRAZILIAN WALNUT   Phoebe Porasa
PERUVIAN WALNUT Juglans Neotropica
AFRICAN MAHOGANY Khaya Ivorensis
AFRICAN PADAUK Pterocarpus soyauxii
BURMESE PADAUK Pterocarpus Macrocarpus
EBONY Diospros spp
SOUTH AMERICAN MAHOGANY Swietenia Macrophylla
FIJIAN MAHOGANY Swietenia Macrophylla
NEW GUINEA ROSEWOOD Pterocarpus Indicus
MAHOGANY SAPELE Entandrophragma Cylindricum
PANGA - EAST AFRICAN WENGE Millettia Stuhlmanni
BUBINGA Guibourtia Spp
AMERICAN ROCK MAPLE
QUEENSLAND MAPLE

They are also planning to stock sitka in the near future.

I've put scientific names in because they sometimes have the wrong names on the wood in the yard.
They were calling Padauk, African Rosewood.

There is a little Honduran Mahogany still there including one slab sawn plank that I reckon is 3 feet x 16 feet and 4 inches thick. ( I asked the price but the bloke said it would cost me a couple of months pay

An 8 foot x 8 inch x 2 inch quarter sawn board of the Fijian Mahog was about $65AUD. There's not much quarter sawn left but the slab sawn is fine for laminating necks. They also have a heap of 4 inch by 4 inch which I'm going to have a closer look at next time I'm up there.

I also got some Padauk from them which I'm very excited about. Tap tone is unbelievable. 16 foot x 12 inches by 1 1/2 inches was about $160AUD just to give you an indication of what prices are as there are none on the website.

I'm in Geelong and go up there about once a month. If you want some Fijian to check it out get in touch with me and I'll send some over to you.

Cheers

Bob

_________________

------------------------------------------------------
Bob Connor
Geelong, Australia

Welcome to the OLF Bob, good to have more people from Oz.

Thanks for the info.

Welcome to the forum Bob amd thanks for the wood info.

Cheers

cheers bob,,,
I hadn't heard of them
prices sound good
and welcome

Welcome to the OLF Bob, glad to have another Aussie mate join in the fun!

Serge

Welcome!

Mike
White Oak, Texas