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Advice for newbie please
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Author:  Richard_N [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:00 am ]
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Hi

I'm getting ready to build my first acoustic guitar and would apreciate your advice on the following points

1. Side bending.

Whats the best method for a beginner ? A mould with a heater banket looks like it might be easier although a bit more expensive - does this produce finished sides without scorching ? Would you recomend this over a bending pipe ?

2. Build on a workboard freestanding or in a mould ?

So far I`ve read (and am currently re-reading ) Cumpianos book and Kinkeads book. Both seem good but use different methods. Cumpiano constructs the guitar on a workboard whereas Kinkead uses a mould. To me the mould looks more foolproof although requiring the additional work of building a mould. What do you use / recomend ?

3. Tenon Joint / Spanish heel

In an endeavour to simplify things I am considering doing a Spanish heel on a steel string guitar thus avoiding the complicated neck joint . Do you think this would be ok ? It looks simpler to build and the only downside I can see is that it couldn't be reset in the future (since this is going to be my first attempt I dont see that will be an issue)

4. Finishes. Since this is my first guitar I am trying to keep things simple and minimise the initial cash investment and am therefore considering using an oil finish (Tung oil). Is this ok for an acoustic guitar ?

Thanks for youre help
Author:  LanceK [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:32 am ]
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HI Cachalote, Welcome to the OLF
Ill go!

1. Yes, if money is not an issue Get a side bending jig, or make one, get a heat blanket, and you'll be set to bend your sides, maybe a thermometer to keep track of your temp. I have a nice rheostat that regulates mine.
2. Work or mould, I say out side mold that matches your bending form.

3. Which joint, Mortise and tenon will be MUCH easier than a Spanish heel.

4. Tung oil is fine, I personally have never used it, but have seen it used and it looks pretty good.

These are just my thoughts, I'm sure others will differ.

LanceK
OH, and above all, ask ask ask questions here at the OLF! You will get more help than you could ask for!
LanceK38972.4815162037
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:37 am ]
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Hi Richard,
Welcome to the OLF!
You can search for answers to most of your questions in the archives. However, you will find that there are almost as many ways to build guitars as there are builders. I don't think one is any easier than another.
Personally, I am from the Cumpiano school so I went with the methods described in his book. Check his website also for some of the latest changes.
A mold is a good way as well. I guess you just have to choose one and go for it.
A bolt on neck is pretty simple actually and believe me, on your first, you will want to be able to do a neck reset. (Don't ask me how I know this.)
Do lots of reading and make or get good plans!
And then just do it.
Good luck and have fun!

Wade
Author:  Wayne Clark [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:50 am ]
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Hi and welcome to the forum. You have come to the right place. You will find a lot of really talented, helpful people here.

I'll throw in my 2 cents on #2 and #3. I built my first freestanding, using Cumpiano's book as a reference. All after that were with forms. I found it hard to get the sides absolutely parallel. In turn, that made the binding harder to do well.

For the neck joint, it would be hard to beat the mortice and tenon type for simplicity. If you have a router, it is really pretty easy. I have not built a spanish heel, so I can't really compare them.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:11 am ]
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Tung oil is not a protective finish. It is no more work to use something like Tru-Oil which can provide a fairly nice finish if enough coats are applied.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:07 am ]
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[QUOTE=BarryDaniels] Tung oil is not a protective finish. It is no more work to use something like Tru-Oil which can provide a fairly nice finish if enough coats are applied.[/QUOTE]

I will have to disagree with this statement. Tung oil is a protective finish. It may not make a thick film barrier but it does make a film. It does create a moisture barrier and does protect the wood from most elements. Alcohol and high solvents will melt it but the same thing can be said for shellac, nitro or waterbone. My favorite guitar neck in my personal stable is high gloss tung oil finished.MichaelP38972.5475347222
Author:  old man [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:25 am ]
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Richard Newman doesn't sound Spanish.    Welcome Richard.

I use Cumpiano and Kinkead also. I follow Cumpiano on making the neck and cutting the mortise and tenon and use the barrel bolt on system that he shows on his website. I build my bodies more like Kinkead, with an outside mold.

Ron
Author:  peterm [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:07 am ]
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Cachalote?? insn't that some sort of a whale?

oh...WELCOME to the forum!!peterm38972.6475347222
Author:  MSpencer [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:24 am ]
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Welcome!

1. Bending jig, spritz and wrap in foil, watch your temp and baking time and most B&S sides are OK, lighter color like Maple can scortch if not careful.

2. Mould

3. Bolt on Neck M&T

4. I like TruOil (gunstock) better but Tung is OK in the oil category

Mike
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:12 am ]
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Hi Richard and welcome to the best place on earth for any info you need on lutherie!

Serge
Author:  JBreault [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:22 am ]
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Richard, welcome to the OLF. You won't find a better group of guys (and a few gals too) on the 'net!
Author:  Richard_N [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:51 pm ]
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Thanks for the comments.

I think I'll probably get a blanket for the side bending - they seem to be about the same price as an electric bending iron and with less posibilities of disaster ! I've seen a good photo in another thread and will probably be able to build one from that (thanks dmills !).Are there any important points to take into account ?

Looks like I'll also be building a mould ( I like old mans comment about combining the 2 methods - oh and youre right I'm not Spanish but moved here to escape the cold a number of years ago - little did I know that the 70% humidity was ever gonna cause me problems gonna be experimenting with a portable de-humidifier next week!!! )

The verdicts still out on the neck joint method.But I'm currently on my second read through the books and youre right the Spanish heel doesn't realy look easier when you start to think about it in detail.

I was expecting to hear that an oil finish isn't suitable for an acoustic on the grounds that it soaks into the wood. I have an electric with an oil finish which I love (especialy the feel of the neck as mentioned by MichaelP). I'd be keen to go withit since I don't have spraying facilities available.

Oh and Peterm yes Cachalote is a type of whale..... its a long story !!!

Anyway thanks for the help and hopefully in a few weeks time I'll be able to report some progress (probably in the form of more questions !!)
Author:  TonyKarol [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:45 pm ]
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I would suggest that a straight butt joint is easier than a M&T.. no M&T to make. Taylor (and I) have been doing them for years !!!! One of my students finished his entire guitar in Waterlox tung oil finish - tehn wax. It worked out very well, and its as easy as it gets.
Author:  Matt H [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:33 am ]
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Cachalote,

As a fellow newcomer to the forum, welcome. I have posted a couple of questions here in the past couple of weeks and have had some very quick and helpful replies.

I am only on my second guitar, the first of which was built on a workboard with a spanish heel, and the second is using a mould and a dovetailed neck joint. I have found that using the mould really does seem easier and more consistant.

Hope you have fun building!

Matt

Author:  D Stewart [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:46 am ]
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Welcome Cachalote,

Don't be afraid to start with a "Fox style" bender and the light bulbs as heat. You can up-grade to the blanket if you have the cash, but the bulbs will heat very well also. I agree that the mold is much easier that the work board. Dive in. mistakes can be corrected and are great "learning oportunities". Small mistakes can be left as birth marks.

Donovan
Author:  old man [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:48 am ]
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[QUOTE=Cachalote]


I was expecting to hear that an oil finish isn't suitable for an acoustic on the grounds that it soaks into the wood.

[/QUOTE]


I finished my first in true oil, really like it. I sealed everything with shellac first so the oil would not penetrate much into the top.

Ron
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:18 am ]
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Michael, In regards to the durability of tung oil finishes; there is tung oil and then there is tung oil. Some of the stuff sold as tung oil has varnish or other materials in the mix which greatly increase the protection provided by the finish (similar to Tru-Oil). I would not be surprised if the tung oil you used was like this. 100% pure tung oil is a different animal alltogether and it provides little protection.
Author:  Richard_N [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:01 am ]
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Thanks again guys for the input.

A friend whos a carpenter has been kind enough to let me use a section of his workshop to build in. The only problem is that the humidity is not controlled. I was thinking of building something like a plastic greenhouse( wooden frame covered by polethene sheet ) inside the shop just big enough to store the wood and the part built guitar in and have a small workbench in for assembling the body of the guitar - (maybe 2m x2m x 3m ) and putting a dehumidifier in it to controll this area then doing other all other work outside. (hes ok with me doing this by the way !)

Would this work ok or do you have a better idea ?Cachalote38978.5688425926
Author:  Martin Turner [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:29 am ]
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Im going to be the lone disenter on the relative ease of construction using spanish heel versus M and T joint.

I built my first steel string using the spanish method and found the whole process alot easier than making a seperate body and neck and then joining them with an M and T joint. IMO alot more skill and precision required on a good M and T joint.

That said I still think for a steel string an M and T joint is a better way to go as neck resetting further down the track is alot easier.

Author:  Billy T [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:04 am ]
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Hola Amigo! ?Como esta usted?

(That's Spanish for "Hi Buddy, how's it going". That's the extent of my Spanish vocabulary, mas o menos)
Author:  Richard_N [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:43 am ]
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[QUOTE=Billy T] Hola Amigo! ?Como esta usted?

(That's Spanish for "Hi Buddy, how's it going". That's the extent of my Spanish vocabulary, mas o menos)[/QUOTE]

Bien gracias   
Author:  Brad Way [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:18 am ]
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Cachalote...I am also in the process of building my first guitar also. My goal is to build a high quality guitar with the idea that I could repeat the same process in the future. What this means is that I am spending lots of time builing jigs and fixtures rather than just custom fitting everything. Since this is my goal I have spent a few months researching and building fixtures and here is what I concluded:

1) Bender vs iron? I build a Doolin inspired bending fixture using a blanket. The fox benders look good but I liked the Doolin bender because it just seemed to make sense to me and wasn't too hard to build. Light bulbs could probably work as a heating method but sounded like a good way to burn something so I opted for a heating blanket for more control.

2) Molds....once again it seems like a good method and I was able to build one master template that allowed me to build both my bending forms and mold.

3) Heel...The mortise and tenon seems to be much more forgiving and offer the same performance. I am in the process of designing a adjustable neck joint (Mike Doolin inspired) so for me the mortise and tenon was a logical choice.

4) Finish...I am still up in the air on what type of finish I will use but my experience says that with proper surface prep most finishes will work and look great.

I would be glad to send you pictures of information on the bender or mold I build if this helps. Also the forum archives are a great place to find answers.

Good luck!
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:08 am ]
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Cachalote;
If you go with a Spanish foot you have got to cut the slots for the sides at an angle -if your using a top with some radius to it at all.
Think about it-you can not cut 90 degree slots then expect the neck and top plane to be right!
So cut 3% slots from top of heel to bottom and shim the neck at the nut(to make the sides square) when you assemble the body and glue on the back.
M & T is easier!!
Mike Collins
www.collinsguitars.com
Author:  Richard_N [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:58 am ]
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Brad and Mike thanks for your in posts.

With the combined help recieved here I have made a definate decision:

I will be following the (nearly unanimous ) advice to do a bolt on neck. Probably the new Cumpiano method rather than the butt joint - for no other reason than that there are drawings on his website and I feel comfertable with his neck construction method so it seems logical to do the whole neck by his method.

I have been working my way through the archives here and on the MIMF and it looks straightfoward to construct a fox style bender ( initialy wth light bulbs for cheapness - if I find I have problems then I 'll bight the bullet and buy the blanket !)

I will use a mould as described in Kinkeads book.

The more I have read the more it has become apparent that there are loads of ways the main thing is make a decision !!!!

This moves me on to my current quandry - Humidity

I think I should start another topic !
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