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Which Cyclone Dust Collector?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=8428		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:06 am ]
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I would like to add one of these 3 cyclone collectors to my shop, my problem is I don't know which one.

I want it to be adequate for future expansion, but I don't what to buy more than I need. I have been eyeing the Penn State Tempestcx, its priced right, at 595.00.

The Oneida seems to be the system to beat performace wise, BUT I am wondering if the tempestcx will be more than enough for my needs, now and in the future.

Right now I plan to plumb my 12 X 22 shop with it. It will be tied in to a Table saw, Edge sander, joiner, thickness sander, ban saw,spindle sander
Disk sander and a drop down floor sweep. All with Blast gates. I suspect as long as there are blast gates it doest matter how many tools you have attached.
Anyways, thoughts, advise? Help me make a case for the Penn system, OR make a case why I need the Onieda.
Thanks

Below are the three units im looking at.
========================================
Penn State TEMPESTCX 1350 CFM Free Air650 CFM thru Cyclone 595.00




Oneida Gorilla 1422 CFM @ 2.3 SP W/C 745.00
Oneida Super Gorilla 1422 CFM @ 2.3 SP W/C WITH Baldor Motor 895.00



Lastly, I am open to any other suggestions, OTHER than making one my self, Im a Plug and Play kinda guy LanceK38973.3814583333
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:16 am ]
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Ok Lance, i got the message! I would not have suggested that anyway, too hard to do even for me!
Author:  KevinA [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:35 am ]
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Lance,

I went through this analysis myself about six months ago. Learned a lot from Bill Pentz' site (Bill Pentz). I doubt you can go wrong with the Oneida, but you should check out ClearVue
(ClearVue). ClearVue makes cyclones based on Bill Pentz' designs and sells a 5 HP (Leeson motor) at a very reasonable price. I haven't looked lately, but for less money than the Oneida I was able to get a much more powerful unit. You do have to assemble the unit, but that took much less time than plumbing my shop. The real key seems to be using 6 inch pipe rather than 4 inch as close to your machines as possible. I used 6 inch S&D pvc pipe and it works wonderfully.

Good luck.

Kevin
Author:  Brock Poling [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:39 am ]
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[QUOTE=KevinA] Lance,

I went through this analysis myself about six months ago. Learned a lot from Bill Pentz' site (Bill Pentz). I doubt you can go wrong with the Oneida, but you should check out ClearVue
(ClearVue). ClearVue makes cyclones based on Bill Pentz' designs and sells a 5 HP (Leeson motor) at a very reasonable price. I haven't looked lately, but for less money than the Oneida I was able to get a much more powerful unit. You do have to assemble the unit, but that took much less time than plumbing my shop. The real key seems to be using 6 inch pipe rather than 4 inch as close to your machines as possible. I used 6 inch S&D pvc pipe and it works wonderfully.

Good luck.

Kevin[/QUOTE]

Not to steal Lance's thread, but you actually bought one of these? Can you tell us about how easy / hard it was to put together. I have been looking at one of these, but the thought of assembly worries me a little.
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:46 am ]
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I'm also considering a new dust collector and would like to hear feedback on different units. Most of the folks up here like the Oneida's, but I'm always open to a better bargain....
The one thing that Oneida has going for it is their machined aluminum fanwheel...non-sparking, and also they tested out as the most quiet. Their 2hp Baldor system is only $895 + shipping.
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:02 am ]
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My friend, Jim Kirkwood, is a pretty bright guy, and concluded that the ClearVue was the way to go for him. He's documenting his installation of a big ClearVue system here. He decided to put the unit outside his building (to reduce the noise factor of any cyclone), so he's building a small attached room to his building. (You wouldn't have to, but if any cyclone is indoors, you'll have to live with high noise.)

After reading Bill Pentz's info, it sure seems like any cyclone will remove/separate the vast majority of chips and dust from the air in the vacuum, but the best designs remove the tiniest particles. The tiniest particles seem to have the highest health risks.

Dennis

{edit} Bear in mind that Jim is 71 years old and needs both knees replaced. So, some of his physical struggles with the installation may not be as big an issue for some of us. DennisLeahy38973.4207523148
Author:  Pwoolson [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Lance, I have the PSI 14" Tempest. I like it a lot but it seams to lack the guts to do a good job on the thickness sander. I might bump it to a 5 hp motor and see if that will help.
As it has been said before DO NOT USE 4" PIPE. You'll regret it. My old shop had 4" and I couldn't get good collection from any machine. Now the 6" works gread for everything but the thickness sander. Even that it does pretty well, just not what I really would like.
On mine I have a jointer, table saw, edge sander, band saw, thickness sander and two open ports for things like a RO sander and router table.
Hope that helps.
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:36 am ]
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Hmm, 4" pipe is bad I have 5 cases of it in my basement right now in preparation of this project.
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Lance, unfortunately, if I recall, it is best to use 6" at least for the primary trunk line. Most of these cyclone units have at least a 6" connection if not bigger on the unit. There's a good reason for that.

I'll be changing out all my pipe too, so don't feel alone.
Author:  KevinA [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:41 am ]
Post subject: 
The ClearVue installation was very straightforward. All of the parts come with the unit and were well packaged. You need to build a wall mount on which the whole unit sits, but that was very easy and Ed's site shows exactly what you need. One note is that the unit with the five HP motor and 15" impeller is not light so the bracket needs to be heavy enough to support everything. So don't skimp on the materials here.

Like I said earlier, the assembly of the cyclone was very easy. The plumbing of my shop took much longer to get done. BTW, Ed includes six 6" blast gates with his unit (or at least he did when I bought mine).

The reason I went this direction was (i) I did not want to build a unit from scratch and (ii) the economics worked. For the same price as the Oneida 2 HP unit, I got a 5 HP/15" impeller unit with (according to Bill Pentz) a superior design.

What I can tell you is that my shop has never been cleaner. I use the unit primarily with my Felder combo machine (12" table saw, 12" planer/jointer and shaper), a Laguna 16HD band saw, router table and a Performax 22-44 sander. With the Performax there is just no dust that escapes the cyclone. It is truly amazing.

I am a big believer in Pentz' analysis of CFM and power requirements. My unit replaced a 2 HP Grizzly dust collector (not a cyclone) and the difference with a 5 hp motor and 6" piping is nothing short of dramatic.

Sorry to be so effusive, but I am sold on this unit. And the price was right!

Hope this helps.

Kevin

P.S. Will try to remember to take some pictures of the installation and piping tonight and post them tomorrow.KevinA38973.4493055556
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:50 am ]
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Kevin, what was your total $$ investment in the dust collector, not counting the ductwork?
Author:  KevinA [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:45 am ]
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Don,

When I bought my unit, the price was $895. I see on Ed's site that the price is now $995. I then built a muffler for the unit and added two exhaust filter cartridges from Wynn Environmental (Wynn).

The muffler is made from 12" diameter heating duct with a 6" screen core from Home Depot. The interior of the muffler (between the 6" core and the 12" duct) is filled with fiberglass insulation. Total cost was less than $30.

I use two side-by-side filter cartridges from Wynn below the muffler. The part number you need is listed on the ClearVue site as 9L300BL which cost $70.00 ea. As a side note, Wynn also sells hose clamps that fit the curvature of the steel reinforced hose they and others sell. Spend the money on these as they work much better than traditional hose clamps.

The other items I had to find were machine transitions that would fit 6" hose. I ordered some from a place in Atlanta which worked fine, but I now use Oneida ducting parts. Just easier and they know what they are talking about when you call with questions. Duct Incorprated's (Duct) LaserLock products are also good for ducting components.

In short, I probably have close to $1,100 in the system without ductwork. Even using pvc S&D piping (which is a lot cheaper than metal ductwork), I probably have another $800-$900 in ductwork in a two car garage size shop feeding five machine runs.

No matter which way you go, a full cyclone installation is not cheap, but the result is worth every penny in my estimation.

Kevin
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Kevin, one more question if I may...
How well does it work with the Laguna? I have the same saw, and my current Grizzly dc can't do much to collect the dust. Probably not the best location for the duct port on that saw....
Author:  Chas Freeborn [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:04 am ]
Post subject: 
I've been going through the same research too. I've all but settled on the
Oneida with the Baldor upgrade. Note that the upgrade not only adds the
american made motor, but is also has a bigger filter.
Compared to the other makes the Oneida is bulit from heavier sheetmetal. is
fully welded and includes a muffler.
When I talked to them a few months back the super Gorilla was a month or
so wait, so you'll want to get your order in sooner than later.
-C
Author:  Pwoolson [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Lance, I'd say return the 4" pipe and go to the home depot and get 6" SD pipe. I'll talk you through how to ground it without having wires hanging all over the place if you want. The SD pipe is pretty cheap and I'd bet you have much less invested in it that your 4" DC pipe.
Author:  SimonF [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:15 am ]
Post subject: 
I would check out Grizzly's cyclone's. Man does this thing suck but in a
good way. I have the 3hp and it does a wonderful job with my drum
sander.

Here is a picture of the machine at
www.fayguitars.com/guitars/workshop_files/page8-1006-full.ht mlBrock Poling38973.5181944444
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Lance don't forget to add in a downdraft table!
Author:  Cameron Reddy [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:21 am ]
Post subject: 
I also have the ClearVue and love it. It takes some work to assemble, but
it is much cheaper than the Onedia for the power. And when it comes to
dust collection, power is king. This is because you need excess capacity
in terms of air flow to make sure that inefficiencies in your ducting (like
having 4" ports on machines) can be overcome. You need at least 800
CFM at the source of the dust if you want any chance of pulling in the
submicron stuff that can really hurt you. You can pull 800 CFM through a
4" pipe... but you probably need seven or eight Hp turning a 16" or larger
impeller to do it. In short, you need 6 inch ducts.

So, between the Onedia and the Penn State, no contest. But, I'd suggest
that you look closely at the ClearVue. It's also fun to watch wood chips
swirl down into the trash can.

I'd return all but a few feet of the 4" pipe for machines that have two 4"
attachments and for those machines that you cannot re-port to 5 or 6
inches. For example, on my small shaper, I utilize the 4 inch port, but
from my 6" main I also break off a 2 1/2" loc-line hose that I position as
necessary to pick up what doesn't get pulled into the 4" line. I do the
same for my table saw and my jointer. If the machines had 6" ports, with
the power of the ClearVue, I might not need the secondary intakes.

I use Norfab ducting which clamps together in a quick-fit manner. It is
top of the line and allows you change your mind about machine
arrangement and quite quickly reroute your ducting.
Author:  Sprockett [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:32 am ]
Post subject: 
I looked at all the options when I setup the new shop, I chose Penn State because they have good prices, excellent customer service and support and I could get all the ductwork from them.

I'm running 7" ductwork all the way to the machines and then down to 4" for the very last part (from the blast gate on), I also for a nominal cost installed the long ranger system so that all I had to do was open a blast gate and the system would come on. I have the next version up from Woolson and it had more guts than I need, I think the 7" feed really helps. Also on your 4" DO NOT use the rubber stuff with wires in it, you lose a ton of air flow with it, I found the black plastic stuff at Penn State is very smooth on the inside and works much much better, you can get it at woodcraft as well.

I could not be happier with my setup, even cutting MDF on both the CNC and the tablesaw I used to taste it and it would cloud the shop, with the new setup I don't even notice it. I get some dust around the CNC but that's expected, the other thing that is cool is the the remote system allow me to add other toggle switches if I want, I'm actually planning on having the CNC turn it on remotely in the very near future.

The most expensive part is the ductwork, even the economy adds up fast and it's not fun to put in but it's worth the effort ;)

-Paul-Sprockett38973.5661921296
Author:  KevinA [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Don,

Performance against the Laguna is probably the weakest of my machines. I replaced the Euro dust port on the saw with a six inch port, but the location of the dust port is, I think, the issue. What I have done is to put a "Y" in my six inch drop and bring a smaller diameter hose to the band saw table top. Helps get any dust which isn't dropping down where the main line can pick it up.

Hope this helps.

Kevin
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:20 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm thinking about one of these units, any thoughts?



I'm just concerned about fitting it in my basement.
With the 8' ceiling height, it could be a tight fit.

I'll have to keep a close eye on my cat though...

Don Williams38973.6824189815
Author:  Brock Poling [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:25 am ]
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[QUOTE=Don Williams] I'll have to keep a close eye on my cat though...[/QUOTE]

That is hilarious....   
Author:  TRein [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Not to hijack the thread, but does anbody have one of these? Bill's Cyclone Page rates them very highly. A bit pricey, but much smaller than a cyclone and saves valuable space. If it cleans the air better than a cyclone with less fuss, I think it might be worth the extra expense. Plus, all ya gotta do is plug er in!


Author:  npalen [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
keychain remote
20 amp 230 volt module
I use the X10.com components to switch my cyclone on and off. Have a half dozen or so of the little keychain transmitters either stuck on the wall near machines, carry in pocket etc. Even keep one by my lazy boy so I can let the collector run a few minutes while taking a break and then turn it off from upstairs. The transmitter sends a wireless signal to a controller that is plugged into any outlet in your house or shop. The controller then sends a signal thru your wiring to the plug-in module to turn on the dust collector or whatever. I run my 2.5 HP Tempest S series with it. cyclone
I use the same keychain transmitters to switch a solenoid valve on my air compressor out in the garage so that I can have air pressure down in the basement when needed.
Might mention that the filter cartridges downstream of the cyclone are very important in capturing the fine dust. I would recommend at least 0.5 micron.
Nelson
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