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| Author: | RCoates [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:44 pm ] |
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Yeah I know, I know. I still need to spend some time cleaning this up and I need to make some minor adjustments to the upper cross brace but I thought I'd give a peek at what I'm working on right now Just don't mind the mess... 
You can see here that I can't do anything "by the book". Thanks for looking. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:25 pm ] |
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Nice looking Ronn... Is that a fan braced SS? Looks a little big for a classical but it just might be the picture. Good work either way 
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| Author: | RCoates [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:31 pm ] |
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Just the pics... It's a classical. The center fans are 3.5mm x 3.5mm and the center brace across the fans is 7mm x 7mm. Maybe that will help put into perspective. |
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| Author: | burbank [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:06 pm ] |
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OOOOOEEEEEE!! Nice piece of work, Ronn, What mess? 
Is the lower cross brace, above the V, notched to fit the fan braces? I'm amazed at how much more intricate the tops of classicals are compared to SSs. Keep us posted please! |
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| Author: | MSpencer [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:17 pm ] |
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Excellent work, I like that bracing pattern. What is the rest of the guitar plan? Mike White Oak, Texas |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:20 pm ] |
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Very nice work Ronn, yes, the bracing pattern of a classical seems to be a bit more work than what i'm used to on SS, looking at this pattern, a question came to mind, how would a classical perform with steel strings on? Or better yet, how would a Steel string guitar perform soundwise with such a bracing pattern? I am asking because of the way the braces are placed, looking like it will make the sound travel in every directions easily, am i right? Thanks |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:52 pm ] |
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Pat That brace is notched to receive the fan braces just as the outer fans are notched to receive the lower transverse brace (below the sound hole). Mike the rest of the guitar? Its a indian rosewood cedar topped classical w/ rosewood binding and maple purfling. Serge Boy you ask some tough questions. I can't answer. Sorry maybe someone else will be able to. There is a theory that says the braces direct the sound/vibrations out across the soundboard so..? All of this is really experimental for me right now. I've been going through this book ("Building Master Guitars")and building several of the different styles there. All this just to experience the difference in sounds. I plan to settle down with one or two bracing patterns and try to refine the sound to my taste. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:57 pm ] |
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Thanks Ronn, don't worry, it was just a curiosity, was just wondering if an SS would sound louder or clearer with such a bracing system, i'm pretty sure i'll have the answer to that soon anyway!  Thanks
Serge |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:57 pm ] |
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My opinion Serge is that for other than a very lightly strung small OO or smaller steel string that the Frederich bracing would not be strong enough for the string tension. Even with the cross bar in the bridge area it is still to light for a steel sring. Theoretically you could take the brace dimensions and make them larger to get it to work for a steel string. I would also be concerned about the amount of unbraced area around the perimeter as Frederich keeps his fan braces short and to the center of the top. |
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| Author: | dubell [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:49 pm ] |
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Do you plan on cleaning up the back? If so, how? I always wonder what other luthiers do with the backs of their tops. This is a very difficult area to have a clean look due to glue squeeze out and not being able to sand uniformly. |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:27 am ] |
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Wow, nice job, Ronn! Show us more pics of this as the guitar comes together. Doug, dunno how Ronn or others do it, but I use a glue scraper for the squeeze-out while the top is in the go-bar deck. Then I use emory boards to sand lightly around the braces and even to lightly sand the braces themselves. I buy an assortment of emory boards periodically at a local beauty supply. I find they're quite useful for sanding in confined or awkward-to-get-to areas. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:03 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Shawn] My opinion Serge is that for other than a very lightly strung small OO or smaller steel string that the Frederich bracing would not be strong enough for the string tension. Even with the cross bar in the bridge area it is still to light for a steel sring. Theoretically you could take the brace dimensions and make them larger to get it to work for a steel string. I would also be concerned about the amount of unbraced area around the perimeter as Frederich keeps his fan braces short and to the center of the top.[/QUOTE] Thanks Shawn, ironicly, i had your name in mind to answer my tough questions! I guess the newb that i am shouldn't fool around with bracing patterns from an SS to a classical or vise versa, i'll keep on learning on SS and build a classical in the future to understand each one, thanks a lot for your great input Shawn, i really appreciate it! Serge |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:59 am ] |
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Serge, There is the Kasha style of bracing that is used for both. I believe it was intially developed by Dr. Kasha for classicals about 30 years ago but has been refined, manipulated, evolved and upgraded/adjusted, for steel strings as well. His bracing is a system rather than a specific pattern and some fine luthiers have moved his work forward. I find it facinating but the research and experimentation will be long but likely very rewarding. By the way Ronn, fabulous work! Shane |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:56 am ] |
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Thanks Shane, i'll search on this subject! 
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:04 am ] |
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A builder named Max Krimmel has built a few Kasha-inspired steel strings. He has some pics here. Krimmel briefly discusses Gibson's interest and subsequent licensing of Kasha's designs, which led to the Gibson Mark series of the 1970s, and which were, by most accounts I've read, never very popular. There is more info about this in the book, Guitars: From the Renaissance to Rock (1977) by Tom and Mary Ann Evans. The photos at Krimmels site show soundboard bracing patterns that are similar to the Mark's (a few photos of the Mark's pattern is in the above book), but look to be a bit more Kasha-esque than the pattern Gibson ended up going with. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:13 am ] |
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Doug I typically use a razor blade, chisel, and small wooden blocks with sandpaper... Michael's emory board is a great idea I'll have to look into. I also use a straw to clean up the squeeze out when the braces are still in the clamps. The funny thing is if you look at this top in real life, while still not done, it looks pretty clean , but in the low light photos any little bit of, or smear of glue shows right up. I have a second (cheap) digital camera that makes this look much much worse. Go figure. To everyone else thanks for the comments. I'll post more pics when I complete this one. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:35 am ] |
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Thank you very much Michael, vey interesting concept and link! |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:55 am ] |
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I love pictures of braced tops. Nice job Ron. |
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| Author: | arvey [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:30 pm ] |
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"Dirty Laundry, I didn't look at this post untill now as I really didn't want to see your "tighty whities" Now that I've looked nice top. |
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| Author: | jfrench [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:46 pm ] |
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Jimmy Caldwell does some Kasha braced steel strings. He seemed to have a pretty favorable view of it, maybe he'll notice this thread. I think in general, if I were doing making a steel string I wouldn't attempt fan bracing. I think classicals and steel strings require different approaches. |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:56 pm ] |
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Ronn, nice looking work, mate! Studying the Freiderich picture your top is lying on, I noticed a wee little brace--sitting horizontally--at the top of the lower V. All I can see is the bass side, so there could be one on the treble side. What do you suppose he's doing with that? To me (and here's a SS sting maker talking), it seems counter-intuitive. I don't get it. Is that explained? As for a fan braced Steel String, you're talking Ovation. Never heard one that I liked. Steve |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:17 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] Ronn, nice looking work, mate! Studying the Freiderich picture your top is lying on, I noticed a wee little brace--sitting horizontally--at the top of the lower V. All I can see is the bass side, so there could be one on the treble side. What do you suppose he's doing with that? To me (and here's a SS sting maker talking), it seems counter-intuitive. I don't get it. Is that explained? Steve[/QUOTE] Unfortunately it's not explained. There is one on both sides. I left them out. Look and you can see that I have deviated from the picture in other areas as well. Not for any good reason It's just what I did. Again this is all experimental. If I decide to build with this pattern again I may get a little closer to the picture/plan in the book. I've been listening to Roberto Aussel and Alvaro Pierri lately. They both play Friederich guitars and the sound is, to my ears, quite different from what I am hearing from other makers. Not exactlly the sound I'm looking for(close), but very pleasant. The trebles are very piano like. I'm quite curious to see what this one sounds like. |
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