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Well folks, a while back, my bud Alain taught me how to FP but as soon as as i got to be on my own to do it, i failed, i learned, with FP, that my patience level is not that high, there are things we can all do but for me, FP ain't one or maybe i should say that finishing is one of those steps where i feel i have not what it takes, maybe with time but right now, i'm just hoping for a miracle....

So before i put my fist through my Mom's guitar, i decided to abandon FP in favor of spray cans of Varathane over a seal coat of shellac, i have dsprayed 7 layers on the top and also 7 on the neck and here how it looks so far...













i really think that if i'm ever make a living at this, that i'll be farming out the finish unless someone has a miracle product for someone like me

Thanks for lookin'!

Hang in there, Serge!
Sorry to hear that your luck with FP didn`t go so well.
You`ll settle on your particular finish.
Coe

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Give me 50 cents worth of regular.
Check my oil too, if you don`t mind,,,

Thanks Hesh and Coe, i needed the encouragement, Alain was so kind to teach me how to FP but it didn't work as well as that night in his shop and i felt so stupid and frustrated with the whole thing that i came this close to destroy it, i probably sanded the guitar down to bare wood 3-4-5 times before i settled for this finish, i think that if i were to sand down again, there'd be many soundports all over the place!

Thanks for listening

Unfortunately Serge, the only surefire miracle product is hard work. I've heard many builders say that the finish does and should take about the same amount of time to do as the entire rest of the build. There are no short cuts when it comes to getting a good finish. It's all practice and lots of patience.

It's hard I know cause you've just spent the last 3-6 months or more building this guitar and you just want to get it done, but in reality you have many many more hours to go to get it looking as good as it can.

Hang in there bud, this is only your second project. I refinished my third one 3 times (striped it down to bare wood every time) and I'm still not thrilled with it. The 4th turned out better, but I was much more patient etc..... Don't give up on the FP, get Robbies DVD maybe, get together with Alan some more, his turned out very nice from the pics he posted. You can do it.

Remember, this hobby is building even more character for you my passionate friend. Finish is something that you have to become one with the universe with (think of the lowly monks high in the Andes, sitting and meditating all day long, you know the ones we see in the movies and TV adds of old). That is kind of the mindset required for finishing. Take lots of deep breaths (just make sure your wearing a respirator mask ) and eventually, you will get it. I bet there isn't one builder out there that would like to redo the first 5-10 finishes they did themselves after they finaly "got" it.Rod True38984.9152546296

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Thanks a lot Rod, you just brought a huge grin on my face with the Yoda stuff buddy, i was considering breathing helium in a respirator so i could laugh through the whole process ya know!

Yes, you're right, Alain had told me so too, there ain't no short cut with finishing i know but i also have a hard time with too much sanding of wood that's already too thin to begin with, guitars ain't thick like furnitures are ya know! !

I seriously consider either farming out or a spray booth or giving FP a one last chance with Alain's help if he still wants to and with Robbie's DVD , maybe my patience level will be higher next spring? I sure hope so!

Thanks bro, i appreciate your positiveness as always!

SergeSerge Poirier38984.9214930556

I am sorry to hear that you're having these difficulties
Serge. Like Rod said -There are no shortcuts and it takes a lot of work to get a good finish.I hope your buddy Alain can help you some more.I know you will find a way. I spray nitro myself and was lucky to have a friend here that has been a paint and body man for 30 years.He helped me with tips on spraying and what equipment to use and so on. So chin up buddy,You will get there!

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

Hang in there Serge. I know you can do it. You will find what works for you. And then all will right in your world.

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Aoibeann

Very well said Rod...

Sergio! Just think, in a month or so, my paint booth will be up and running... We'll have a whole slew of possible finishes to drive us mad!!!

You guitar looks good my friend! Have you sanded level yet? Keep it up! You'll get'er done!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Serge, if you were only practicing on some scrap you could experiment without worries, but you have so much heart in this instrument it just has to be perfect. Just listen to your friends here with all their advice and best wishes and however it comes out, it will be wonderful.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Don't give up, Serge!!! JUST DON'T GIVE UP!!!

Work on the back only until it's perfect...small sections at a time. Then the sides and top will go like a breeze. If I can do it, anybody can! Keep the faith, Bro!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[quote=Rod -The Truth- True]Unfortunately Serge, the only surefire miracle product is hard work[/quote]

   Look at the ingredients list on that product and you'll find "patience" very first!!!

     Good Buddy! This troubles me! I understand the frustration, that's for sure. I'm sure most of us do. Finishing is very much involved with knowing when to walk away. Not, just because you have a problem, but it's part of the process.

   I've finished furniture to a very high finish, painted cars, motorcycles and the coating process is a lot different than general building. Don't forget, there's a lot of sanding and buffing after the coating.

    The main thing about getting it on is, getting enough on there, in the right way, to take enough off to make it look good.

    You should of seen my first car paint GEESH! But with some paper, compound, and lamb's wool, I'll just say, I had all kinds of compliments and offers to paint other cars. Of course, none saw it before the polish.

     I think the only diffence between then and now is, I know where to stop, and can get it done faster, but the process is exactly the same. Just like Rod said "hard work"!

     Of what, I've seen of Alain's work your in good hands!

   Don't give up, where would this country be today if we gave up after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!!!

Hang in Buddy
Billy Dean

P.S. If you smash Mom's git, then you get to learn repair, so look on the bright side!!
Billy T38984.9905439815

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

You are toooooo funny Billy, repair, ya that's what he really wants to do.

Don't rush the varatane either Serge. I know you want to get this thing done, but you really have to wait for a good cure to start the leveling otherwise it will not turn out. It will smear the finish and you will get frustrated and will want to introduce your fist to the guitar again.

As far as I know the only two "instant" finishes for guitars are FP (which still takes cure time right) and polyester, which is very very stinky, highly toxic and highly explosive so you don't want to be doing polyester if you don't have the proper set up. Heck, the best finisher's out there would probably like minimum of one week for off gassing prior to leveling, that's the beauty of FP, your leveling as you build the layers.

I would give FP more than one more chance, especially if you have Alain willing to help you out with it. Don't rush it and it will come. As JJ said, work on a small part of the back till you have it perfect. You can always take the shellac off with alcohol right, no need to sand anything down. Just lots of rags.

You will get it, I'm sure of it.

If you turn to spray lacquer, be prepared to wait at least 3 weeks after the build coats (10-12) before you can start to level it, than a couple more top coats, wait some more for final leveling, and the polishing stages. It's a long process.

Remember that shellac and lacquer are evaporative finishes and can be "reworked" if you sand through, you can just add some more to the localized area and the new finish will burn into the existing and all will be one.

Varnishes and polyurethanes like your varathane are reactive type finishes which means that once one coat cures, the next coats sit on top but don't become one with the last coat, they bond together but don't burn into one another. This will cause witness lines if you sand to much in one area when leveling.

There are pro's and con's to every type of finish, you just have to decide which one you want to try, try it out and see how it goes. They can all come off at worst and you can always try again.

The scrap board finishing is always the best idea, but not always the most fun right .

Hang in there, set it aside for a couple of days and get back to the mando's, when your ready to get back to finishing the guitar, your mind may be clear and ready.

of course you know this, but we are all rootin for you bud

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Thanks a lot everyone! It sure shows your support for me and i am fortunate to have you all as my friends!

I sure will keep the chin up as everyone advises me to, so far, i have 8 or nine layers of Varathane on the top and neck, i layer on the back and one on one of the sides, the nice thing about this product is that each layer kind of melts into the previous one so i should be all right, although , like Alain mentions, i probably should sand level which i did not do yet!

But at this point, i'm not going to go for perfection, i already accepted that it will be a learning curve with flaws. Not sure if FP will still be in my vocabulary after Alain builds his spray booth though, i'd rather spray than polish from what i know so far!

Maybe my biggest mistake was to give this guitar to my Mom too soon, not being aware of the amount of work to do after the building was done so i'll just make the best of it and try to give her a shiny guitar as best i can.

So thanks Dave, Lillian, Alain, Steve, JJ, Billy and everybody, my OLF people are the best

Regards

Serge

Thanks for that Rod, i guess you and me were posting at the same time eh?! i'll probably give FP another try but it will be on another instrument, FP made me darn mad on this one, i could not approach it for a while now and besides, i took this guitar off of my Mom's hands because i didn't like the previous waterbase finish that was on it and now, i just want to finish this guitar before they leave for Florida next month so that doesn't give me much time to get my patience back for FP!

FP is probably my best option right now but i can't be left alone with it, it would certainly mean disaster, as some of you said, i'll find my own way in time!

Right now, i'm very hopeful with how Varathane is turning out, i think i managed to do a very decent job with it so far so i'm very happy for the first time in about a week or 2, we'll see how it goes, wish me luck!

Thanks bro!

Hang in there Serge. One of the best finishes I ever did was with Varathane. The manufacturer says you can't spray it. (unless you have the spray version of the product) and that it can't be buffed to a high gloss. Well, I did both, and like I said, It was one of the best finishes I ever did. It smelled like an oil varnish for a few weeks.

I'll echo ribie comments above, hang in there Serge. Unfortunately finishing is one of those task that doesn't seem to be a short to. It just takes lots of practice. One of the hardest task really.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Thanks Robbie and Jim, you folks are very kind!

Robbie, i promiss i'll buy your DVD ASAP! One question if i may in the meantime please? How long for this to cure well before buffing out?

Jim, i agree totally, i even thought of reconsidering building, i never knew finishing was that hard even if many had told so, you just can't imagine how much work goes into a pro finish untill you give it a serious shot, well, now i get a glimpse!

Thanks again to you both

Regards

Serge

Serge,
There is no set rule for cure times. It depends on weather conditions, thickness of coats etc. You need to find what works for you in your area. The floor urethanes such as the product varathane are quick drying products and usually you can put furniture back in a room after 24 hours and have heavy traffic after 48 to 72 hours. I wouldn't recommend putting furniture or having heavy traffic on your guitar however!
I would give it a few days and try and wet sand it and buff it. If you notice some problems give it a few more days and try again. With that said, the more cured it is the better so if not in a hurry, take your time and let it cure for a couple of weeks.
Good luck.

Thank you very much Robbie, i still have a month of play with the finishing so i guess i'll be all right then, i really appreciate that coach!

Thanks!

Serge

Serge, I feel your pain. Look at it this way, though: You've built a good-looking, and from what others have said, a good-sounding guitar; and it's only your second! Look how much you've learned since your first. I'd say you've got what it takes to make some fine instruments. A couple of builds from now you'll probably wonder why it was so difficult to put a finish on this one.

The finish is like the wrapping paper on a gift--what's inside it is what counts the most.

Super silky Serge!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Serge,

Here's how I try to look at stuff where I'm trying my best, but still can't get the results I'm after. In my current dilemma, getting the inlays right for my little koa terz, not getting there yet is part of getting where I want to be. How can I get there unless I've not been there? Sort of like being on a path. With my inlays, I spent two days cutting gold MOP and when I got done, I realized, it's not what I want. But I learned what I did wrong, and what I don't want, and it's brought me closer (I hope!)to where I want to be.

So think of your finishing project as walking along a path where you haven't arrived yet. Not arriving is not failing; not arriving is that you're still on the path. It will end and you will get there.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Thanks Carlton, Lance and Pat for the encouragement!

Carlton and Pat, you both hit the nail on the head, those words are great wisdom that i'll bring with me in the shop, i use to know this but forgot it with self applied pressure, the finishing of this guitar is on it's way, no matter how long it takes, i'll eventually get there somehow! And from what i see so far, i'm really encouraged to keep on going, this might not be the finish of choice but under the circumstances that i put myself in, it does the job with the time frame that i have, i'll extend the learning curve to the next instruments to come, i think i still have more years of learning ahead huh? Still pretty green aren't i?

Thanks guys, i'll remember this thread for a very long time!

Thanks Lance, i appreciate that dear Big Kahuna!

Serge

[QUOTE=Serge Poirier] ...under the circumstances that i put myself in, it does the job with the time frame that i have...[/QUOTE]
Yup. A Bear's gotta do what a Bear's gotta do!