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A fretting/leveling question
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Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I press in my frets. Typically this doesn't dent the crown so I have been
leveling only fret by fret as necessary.
Do most of you always sand/level the entire set of frets and therefore
recrown all of them etc. or do some of you only level as necessary.

TIA
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andy...on my last fret installation, I used the Watkins cauls and pressed them in. It was the first time I didn't have to do ANY leveling. Part of my luck was undoubtedly due to diligent FB leveling and a good interface angle at the body. It confirmed my sense that if you do good prep work, it will pay off in less work down the road.
Author:  David Collins [ Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I guess I am of the philosophy that every procedure should have checks
built in to it, so for me the idea of fretting a board without later dressing
was never really thought of. If you want frets to be as perfectly level as
possible I think that variations of less then a few thousandths can be an
unrealistic goal to always achieve on installation. Even relying on the bead
of the fret wire not to vary by at least one or two thousandths may be
unrealistic.

If my prep work is good then I will usually see my leveling block or file
touch the tops of all frets within one or two passes. This usually cleans up
the few thousandths of variance quickly enough that the frets need no
recrowning, and just a quick sanding a polishing over the tops.
Occasionally this leveling may simply tell you that it was perfect before
leveling. Since this may add 3-5 minutes to the total time on fret work, it
seems like a check worth while.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Guys,
Leveling is always necessary. as stated above even the best most precise pressed in frets are off by a few thousandths. so is your perfectly straight fingerboards. And what about those of you that believe in relief? The wire isn't even always manufactured consistantly the same thru all it's length. So even that may/will cause inconsistancy. Both S.M. and LMI sell different length straight edges so you can check for rocking from the first three frets all the way up to 20 something. I check the bass, middle and treble sides all the way up. Even on the best day one or two or three are slightly off. A quick Frank Ford leveling is all it takes and THEN they are all level. You guys gotta stop smoking the ganja before work...
Author:  Glen H [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Files are probably off by a few thousandths as well..
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:09 am ]
Post subject: 
yes, files can be off, which is why one should always check with a straight edge before selecting a file for fret leveling.
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Glen makes a good point about files, and I would even say that the
estimate of a few thousandths may be quite modest. When I buy files that
I intend to make in to leveling files I go to my hardware store and look
through at least a box or two of files to find a good one. Out of two
dozen Nicholson files I may be lucky to find two or three that are
acceptably straight. Then when gluing them to a handle I will clamp them
on a granite surface block to help keep them as straight as possible. Even
then there can be little inconsistancies, and I really believe that you have
to get to know your individual files. I have several that I have been using
for at least 8-10 years that have literally thousands of fret dresses on
them. They each have thier slight little nuances that I have come to know
very well, and I use these inconsistancies when I am choosing which one
to use. I'll be quite sad when time comes to replace them and I have to
get to know a new group of files.

For dressing newly installed frets my favorite tools are my old Stew Mac
float glass leveling blocks, which unfortunately they quit selling many
many years ago. I don't use the clamps on the ends for the sandpaper
though. When using a block like this or a plane sole for leveling I think it
better to use double stick tape, as I think clamping or holding the
sandpaper over it leaves too much slop and could give you a "false
reading" when all the tops have been hit.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:03 am ]
Post subject: 
I level using the Stewmac aluminum radius block with 150p paper. Then recrown. It takes less than 1/2 hour to recrown and I know the frets are level.
Author:  Sam Price [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:07 am ]
Post subject: 
I have been extremely jammy in my hammering in the frets...I used a technique I found on another luthier forum, which involved placing the fretboard on a solid chunk of marble, and hammering in from one end, moving carefully to the other and apart from a little polishing, all the frets are level.
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks
I have one of the stewmac alum. radiused fret leveling blocks. I was just
curious what all of you do.

A related question. Would it be better to level all of the frets with a flat
fretboard or with the SIMULATED string tension and relief eventully used. I
know that stew mac has a large contraption to achieve this.

Also, for those of you that use large radiused sanding blocks for leveling,
what grit do you prefer to use, and do you use more than one grit.

Thanks again
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:40 am ]
Post subject: 
frets must be leveled with the fb flat. if you level the frets with the fb in relief, then there is no relief on the frets. sort of a wasted exercise.

among its several uses, the stew mac neck jig is used to get the neck perfectly straight so that the frets can be dressed flat, not to put relief in the neck while dressing frets.crazymanmichael39003.4468287037
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:05 am ]
Post subject: 
I'll teeter on the verge of philosophy here for a moment, but bear with
me. "Perfectly" level frets are of course an abstract ideal that only could
exist in theory - dividing differences in half repeatedly towards infinity
bla bla bla ... Enlarge a "level" fret board to a length of 2 or 3
astronomical units and fret heights would differ by at least a few Mt.
Everests.
Now back in reality you can get close enough to call them level in
practical terms, but there is still a wide range of what different folks call
level. +/-.001"? .0005" or .0001"?

I feel that in order to get as close to perfection as possible, the leveling of
the frets has to be one of the last things done to an instrument. On
acoustic guitars I never level a board or install frets untill after the neck is
finally attatched. Then even if frets seem level after installing, I can
always improve them with a careful leveling.

When I am really shooting for perfection I set the instrument up on my
neck jig, then I suppose I could say I level in phases. I mark the tops (blue
Marks-a-Lot: the luthiers machinist blueing), and do an initial leveling.
When the frets have all been touched I will remark the frets and go back a
second time with a much lighter stroke. No matter how careful I was the
first time I will almost always find a few frets or areas that do not get hit
on the first pass, or are scuffed lighter than the others. Then I may go
back a third time with a finer file or grit. This last pass is usally a check to
confirm the level by making sure all marking is evenly touched in a single
light pass. Even then I may have to go back for a fourth run.

Of course the majority of the material is taken off in the first phase, and
the average amount removed may be less than .002" at the end of the
whole process. I would like to think I'm bringing the tolerance down to
+/-.0001" with all this work, but would be happy if it checked out in the
.0002"-.0005" range.

So "level" can be very relative, and I don't always go through this whole
process on every instrument. Still, I would say that every fret job could
(and I feel should) be improved upon by at least a quick leveling.

David Collins39003.4678703704
Author:  PaulB [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Those Watkins cauls are the bees knees, money well spent.

How level do they have to be? Just enough to not buzz? Why do more than what is required in that regard? Is there something I'm missing?

On my latest I strung it up without leveling, then used a small flat file with a wood handle glued to the back that could fit between the strings to chase down the one or two buzzes. So what am I not doing right?
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Action vs buzzing is always a big gray compromise. First off, I always hold
that there is no such thing as a guitar that doesn't buzz. It's a matter of
how you pick and how much rattle you are willing to accept in the context
of playing. My strat has incredibly low action and I get virtually no buzz at
all, however if most other players pick it up they will get fret rattle all over
the place. Then I know some players that hit so hard they could probably
make a lap steel buzz.

The extreme end of fine tuning the frets comes in to play with very
demanding players. I have several customers who really ask the
impossible of thier instruments, but will be happy with as close as reality
can bring it. The closer to perfect you can level the frets, the more you
are able to push the limits of setups. It really does make a difference in
what the instrument can deliver.

David Collins39003.5246990741
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Angle of attack will also make an impact a player that picks down on a string at a given force will be less likely to make it buzz than one that picks at an step angle. do to the direction of the force on the string in relation to the plane of the fretboard.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:06 am ]
Post subject: 
I sand a drop from the 18th thru 20th or 21st on the fretboard after I final level the fretboard but not much.
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