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Anyone tried it? From what Siminoff says, I would think it would impact plate stiffness to a lesser degree, but may be to little protection. What's the word on it?

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DES - Shepherd, MI

If I recall correctly, Kim Walker varnishes his guitars,and gets a fantastic finish

Kim Walker

maybe DON could invite Kim here to give us all some pointers on his technique

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Which Don? I don't know Kim, but I had the opportunity to meet him and see his instruments at the Newport show. They are the best that I've ever seen, bar none. Well, I've seen some Borges guitars that are also phenominal too, and a TJ Thompson's guitar, and I'm sure there are others out there, like McGill guitars, and others on that level that compare. But no finish have I ever seen as beautiful as what Kim Walker is using. It has a depth and warmth that is incomparable.
I'm about to embark on a long experiment with varnishes of different kinds and see if I can come up with something like it. Even remotely close would be great. I've been religiously watching the DIY Network "Handmade Music" specials with Lynn Dudenbostal to get an idea where to start. Man, that guy makes some gorgeous instruments...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Bruce Sexauer also uses varnish on his guitars. I think it is Behlan's rock hard table varnish and he brushes it on. I believe he is over on the 13th fret and has posted lots about varnishing.

I have emailed him regarding varnishing and he is very quick to reply, very helpful.

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Is there more info on the stuff?

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DES - Shepherd, MI

Like what kind of info Darin? It is very hard to find MSDS info on it, but it is relativly easy to find the stuff, than you can get the info off the can or from the retailer.

I found a pdf catalog of behlens products from 2002

http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/Behlen2002CatFall.pdf

if you search for behlen rockhard tabletop varnish, you'll find several suppiers of it.Rod True38381.4546643519

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Woodcraft sells it, and that's the first product I'm planning on trying. I may also try their violin varnish too.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I was just trying to find them on the web.

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DES - Shepherd, MI

Darin, there is no website for behlen's. Just suppliers. A little frustrating I know. If you send Bruce an email, he will give you his finishing schedule.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Cumpiano has a schedule for Belhan's Rock Hard Varnish on his website here. I can't vouch for it because I haven't tried it yet, though I do have a small can of the varnish waiting for me to do a trial with it.

More info to add to my library!

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DES - Shepherd, MI

Bruce Sexauer does use Behlen Rock hard Varnish, at least according to his posts over on the AG forum. He does have issues with witness lines if you sand through a layer but says they buff out after month or so I believe. I would love to find a good varnish. I think skill in application is the big thing and probably takes some practice.

Hi folks,

I just finished my 1st guitar using Tru-oil varnish from Birchwood-Casey. It's a standard short-oil, linseed-based varnish originally intended for wiping on gun stocks. It worked out really well considering I had not had any experience at this. As an example, here's what was done:

I grain filled using Z-poxy resin, then after sanding that level with 220 to 400 grit, started wiping on varnish coats with the grain. I used at least 10 full-strength coats at minimum 4 hour drying intervals with very light sanding in between - mostly to remove the dust nibs & generally scuff for adhesion of the next coat. After these 10 or so coats, I carefully wet-sanded level with 220 to 600 grit - trying not to sand through the last coat but not being too carefull. Getting it level is more important at this point. These wiped-on coats are much thinner than brushed-on application. This 10 coat build is not a very thick film overall.

Next, I thinned the varnish 50/50 with mineral spirits & wiped on the last two VERY THIN coats at about two hours between coats. These coats were not sanded (only polished later) and that keeps you from dealing with witness lines.

I let it sit for a few weeks to fully harden. Then hand-rubbed with Novus # 3 polish, Novus # 2 polish, & Novus # 1 polish - in that order of course. This really shines up glossy like the devil! Luckily I didn't polish through the final thinned coats. It looks better than I had hoped or imagined.

Also, from all the information available, I'm pretty sure other short-oil varnishes would behave the same. The Behlens Rock Hard Varnish & the Waterlox glossy varnish would both be likely candidates.

I've read most of Bruce Sexauer's varnish application posts on various forums & he brushes on his Rock Hard varnish coats, then levels & polishes. I pretty sure my brushing technique is not up to that approach.

Anyway, this wipe-on method worked well for me & I can certainly recommend it without reservation. Good luck in whatever approach you decide on.

Skip

Grizzly also sells Behlen's products as well as the rockhard and a violin varnish.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Bruce Petros, who used to visit here once in a while, also uses varnish. Well, if you count polyurethane as varnish. Buys it off the shelf--from Ace hardware I think--and then sprays it on. What is so cool about his method is the way he dries the instrument. He has a bolt that fits in the end pin hole, which is mounted to one of those rotisserie motors, which slowly turns his guitars like a chicken that's roasting. All this happens in a dust-free closet. The beauty of this is that there are no sags, drips or runs in the varnish with this setup. Then when it's cured, he buffs that stuff like lacquer. It really is a pretty finish, with almost as much gloss as a good lacquer job. But it has more warmth, which I like.
Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I used to use Mohawks '4-hour rubbing varnish', which was absolutely the best stuff ever made. Of course, they changed the formula and the new stuff was crap. I've got a little of the old stuff, and used it on my latest archtop with pretty good results.

I've used the Behlen's 'rock hard' and gotten inconsistent results. When it's good it's very very good, and when it's bad it's horrid. Witness lines are the worst problem. The only ways I've found around them are to hone your brushing technique so that you don't have to do much sanding, good tools, and prayer.

Nothing, but nothing, looks as good as a good oil varnish job. That's why I keep trying. However, it has some drawbacks.

The main one is tied to the flexibility that we all like about it: that flexibility and toughness come from the oil content, and oil has high damping. If it gets into the wood at all it can 'eat' a lot of high frequency sound. You need to seal the surface so the oil won't penetrate, and that, in turn, reduces some of the 'light' that makes the varnish so beautiful.

With modern consumers being so used to rock-hard finishes, it's hard to get across the sort of care that's needed to keep varnish looking good. It's ironic that 100 years or so ago Gibson used to rail in their ads about the drawbacks of the 'glassy hard' shellac finishes their competitors were using as compared to the flexibilty of the oil varnish they had. These days nitro, which is about 30% harder than shellac, is considered a _soft_ finish, compared to the catalysed and UV cure stuff. I've found it very hard to educate folks at shows about the nature of French polish and thin oil varnish finishes, and end up spending _months_ afterward repairing instruments that have recieved what is now considered 'normal' treatment by players who are used to hard finishes. I don't know if there's any remedy for this, but once in a while it feels good to gripe.

Hey Alan, you are right, every now and then it feels good to gripe. That's really funny. Maybe we could create a griper's corner of the OLF. A place we could just air our frustrations and let it all hang out. Thanks for the chuckle.

Re the griping corner... I could see a whole new hierarchy of "stars" in that section.

1 = Annoyed
2 = Generally Crabby
3 = Curmudgeon
4 = Serious butthole



anyway....

Alan on the Rock Hard Table Top Varnish... have you found any way to tell if a batch is good, or bad before you put it on a guitar? Is a scrap piece enough to tell, or can you do a test (akin to the "glass" test)?

I am interested in trying this... but I hate to compound my problems.bpoling38382.8744907407

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Please, clue in a total novice!

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DES - Shepherd, MI

If you let shellac dry over night on a piece of glass it's supposed to be hardened overnight. If not, the shellac may never harden and should be thrown out. Here I think he may be trying to test another product this way.

Thanks BD!

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DES - Shepherd, MI

I am trying minwax fast drying floor varnish (a polyurethane) on the necks of my guitars. I really hate the way lacquer wants to delaminate on the edges of the heel and around the fret ends and around the tuner holes. Even with a good shellac base or a good vinyl sealer that delamination can occur. I think Al is right about the possibility of varnish inhibiting tone. It is a little too plastic and I believe may absorb some vibrational energy. But its use on necks should not affect tone

To combat the delamination problem I first switched to KTM-9 with good adhesion success, but really did not like the look. The minwax poly U may be the answer. It is real pretty, has that deep warm look that makes the color of wood and the figure in the wood stand out like no other type finish, shellac excepted. I spray it out of the can and since if flows so well that application method works fine. At least it avoids brush streaks that may not flow out.

Most varnishes have a hard time drying over exotic woods. Bubinga, rosewood, and other resinous woods really inhibit drying. (Its actually a chemical reaction, oxidation and polymerization of the oils) If, however, you seal with a few good coats of shellac before the varnish goes on these problems are solved.

The only varnish I ever tried that consistently dried over rosewood without a sealer, and I am talking about Brazilian Rosewood, the acid test, was Pratt and Lambert #61. As far as I can tell they don't make #61 any more. At least I have not been able to find it. And so it goes with good oil finishes.John Kinnaird38383.2422685185

John,

one of the best finishes I ever got was with minwax high gloss floor poly right off my local luthiers supply warehouse shelf. (Home Depot)
I called the manufacturer about buffing the stuff and they said the more you buff it the less gloss you get. Horse pucky!! I got a high gloss sheen that looks great! The only problem with the stuff is that it tends to yellow over time. Other than that it worked great!

Robbie--"horse pucky"? Got a laugh outta that. Thanks. Now--you are using rosewood in your classicals, right? Any problem w/ drying?Steve Kinnaird38383.6261921296

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

bpoling:
I think it's more my technique, and maybe the weather, than the actual quality of the batch of varnish, that's making the difference. Perhaps if I did a lot more varnishing (as opposed to French polish) I'd get better at it. Or maybe not....