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Sorry for being somewhat political. And sorry to our friends that live outside the US. But this is IMPORTANT. To me it doesn't matter what side of the isle you vote. Just get out there and do it. There's no excuse not to. EVERYONE can spare 30 minutes to do their civic duty.
True democracy only works when the people speak.

I will second Paul's sentiments exactly.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Here Here!

Like George Bernard Shaw said, 'Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve'.

You're not allowed to complain if you haven't voted!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Can we please put stuff like this in the Off Topic section?

Thanks.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Pwoolson]
True democracy only works when the people speak. [/QUOTE]

We're not a democracy...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

But we could be if everyone spoke their voice.

Right now I am telling everyone to vote but that is because I am caught up in a very heated Battle for Mayor in our Municipal elections. When You are actually trying to get the votes it is interesting how important it becomes to get everyone out to Vote. As to the above comment about our not being a Democaracy I know in Canada we aren't and Don't claim to be. We Have representative Govenrment, we vote for people who we believe we can trust to represent us. In true democracy every citizen would get to vote on every issue like the Greeks used to do. Great idea but not practicle.

In a true democracy, you are supposed to be able to criticize your government without fear of reprisal (SP?) or to be treated like a terrorist or an ennemy of the State as such. So Don is right, both Canada and the U.S of A. are not democracies, we only have the illusion that we live in it.

Serge, you have a point. But it does no good to criticize the govt if one is not willing to ACT. Simple voting is the main way we as citizens can tell the government how we feel. If EVERYONE would vote, the govt would get the message from the people.

Edit: COMMENT RETRACTED Serge Poirier39017.7150694444

I always tell people that if you want the right to critisize your government you must earn the right by voting. That way if the person you voted for doesn't get in you can complain about the fact that if your candidate got in things would have been different. If your candidate gets in you can complain that he isn't doing what he promised. I was at an event tonight campaining tonight and the big thing I tell everyone is get out and vote. I was very impressed tonight when I spoke with one young man tonight who is moving away next week. He informed me though not to wory about it because he has alrteady been down to the clerks office to fill out his proxy vote ( and there is an X by my name) we are so fortunate to have the opportunity to vote by proxy and to have numerous opportunities for early voting if you can't make it out on the day. Here in Canada the law even requires that employers give employees sufficient time off work to go and vote. It may not bee true democracy but it is as close as it gets. Make sure you get out and vote.

[quote]In true democracy every citizen would get to vote on every issue like the Greeks used to do. [/quote]

   Greece/Athens wasn't a true democracy either. Only the rich Greeks voted. The USA, was in reality, the truest democracy in history, so don't blow it!!!!

It's not enough just to vote, vote smart and vote as if your voting for everybody's welfare!

Thanks Paul! Billy T39018.0678819444

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Ok... I am just going to open a can o worms... cause I am feeling a little ornry today.

I think NOT voting *** CAN *** be a way of expressing your voice. Usually we are faced with two choices for most offices (sometimes more... but often 2). If both are bad, why would you simply choose the lesser of two evils?

At it's farthest extreme, It is like saying candidate (A) is going to screw you by stealing all your money, and candidate (B) is going to screw you by stealing all your rights. And then "the system" claims that it is a democracy and you have the right to participate, this is a government "of the people" yada yada yada. I say there are occassions when not choosing any candidate is a viable 3rd alternative.

Of course I also realize that any citizen can attempt to run for office etc. But if you look at what a strangle hold the parties have on the political process you either toe the line with one idealogy or the other, or you are in the "lost cause" category instantly. And the deck is absolutely stacked against the "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" types. Not to say one shouldn't try... but there is no sense in being naivee either.

I don't think our time is any better or worse than any other time in history. I do still believe that our system is the best. (I am not an anarchist). But a consciencous and intelligent choice to not vote IS expressing your democratic rights.

... after all... they are OUR rights on loan to the gov't. Not rights bestowed upon us FROM the gov't. We need to remember that.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

      That refers to what I said about voting for others. There are other parties. The problem to voting alternative is it diffuses numbers exactly as you mentioned. There are "SO" many people that feel like you do Brock, including myself.

      I would recommend that if somebody is a Democrat, he vote as an alternative, green, if one is a Republican, they vote Libertarian. If people agree on the alternative it brings numbers in play that can challenge the hegemony.

      I actually saw on the news the other day interviews with alternative candidates on TV, so maybe the corporate news actors are catching on to the dissatisifed electorate.

    I myself, vote on principle, generally against incumbent. If a 1000 people didn't get a job done, then the job didn't get done by a 1000 people. They all go! This tempered with conscience of course.
   
    The main problem is most people believe that everybody elses congressman/senator/president isn't doing the job, but mine's great! It takes guts to vote for somebody, one knows is going to lose.     

     An excellent guide to who not to vote for is how much money is spent on the campaigns. That money is being spent for a reason, and it expects a return.

    If people isolate themselves from the present common practice, voting is an extremely satisfying experience. I have tried to stay party or point specific for a reason. The present system is being played against most common Americans, and they know it, and still play.

    One joke, I saw on the Simpsons was, two Evil Aliens had captured both the Democratic, and the other Republican nominations for president, and they were already rejoicing at taking over the country! Homer pipes up smugly, "Yea! But people could vote for other parties! And the Aliens laughed deep and profoundly and replied "WHAT and THROW away your VOTE!"

   Voting status quo is throwing away your vote, as well as not voting.

    I hope I havn't offended anybody on this. I believe this is in everybody's specific interests. I don't see any worms.

    The only rights people have, are not the rights they are willing to defend, but the rights they actually defend and maintain.Billy T39018.6374074074

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Brock, your idea sort of makes sense ONLY if you have exhausted your voting duties in the primaries, bonds, etc. I feel if you didn't make your vote heard in the primaries, then it's simply a cop out to not vote because you don't like who is in the general.

Okay, how about this? Institute a new rule for national-level elections, saying that if, say, one-third or more of eligible voters don't participate in an election, the results are thrown out and there must be a new election with new cadidates. This would have to continue until more than two-thirds of eligible voters cast ballots.

Now, THAT would make non-voting an important option, and get the attention of complacent political parties!

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] I think NOT voting *** CAN *** be a way of
expressing your voice. [/QUOTE]

Thank you, Brock. I don't vote because a vote is an endorsement. It says
I support. I do not campaigning methods and tactics.

After my best friend interned in the white house two times (once for a
congressman, once for the white house), he/she came back and said
unfortunately he/she learned that our vote has nearly no influence on
what politicians will do once in office and that they would almost define
their job as keeping their seat. My friend (excluding gender on purpose)
was asked to illegally monitor campaign contributions for the opposing
party while he/she was supposed to be doing something to service the
country. As soon as he/she asked if it was legal, he/she was promptly
moved out of the house to an office down the street.

They'll give me a handful of choices from the primary up. Those choices
were selected because they'll be good for the party. I don't want to order
if I don't want anything on the menu, you know?

On a local level, I very much vote.James Orr39018.6993055556

The idea of using our vote to send a message is also one I'm not sure I
totally understand. I don't mean that in a glib way. How does one vote to
send a message? How often do we vote based on the candidates history
in office?

The political pessimist in me thinks we vote on the candidates typography
or the art direction in commercials.   

But I really am asking sincerely - how do you believe votes send
messages? I don't believe I've ever given this much though.

I guess I'm a bit of an idealist in this topic.
Think of it this way. If EVERYONE voted in every election, I mean every election, school board, county sherriffs, etc. the people would be heard. If someone sucked, and the people all voted, the message sent would be, "you suck and we want you out of office".
Sure you can argue that "my one vote doesn't matter". And in return I could argue, what if everyone said that.
This election is more important that the presidential election because the popular vote actually counts. Congress and the Senate are the real decision makers. If you are happy with your Senators and Congressmen, vote to keep them in, if not vote to give them the boot.
Many people view voting as a right. I see it as a duty. We suck of the system everyday. Police, fire protection, running water, military. We ALL use the government everyday yet so many are so unwilling to do thier duty and push a couple of buttons. Someone said earlier that if you don't vote, you don't have a right to complain. In my eyes, if you don't vote, you really shouldn't have the right to the government.

[QUOTE=Pwoolson] Brock, your idea sort of makes sense ONLY if you have exhausted your voting duties in the primaries, bonds, etc. I feel if you didn't make your vote heard in the primaries, then it's simply a cop out to not vote because you don't like who is in the general. [/QUOTE]

Forget the primaries. If you are not one of the two major parties you can't even get on the stage. If you run outside of the R's or D's you can't into the debates, news coverage, or anything.

And if you are an R or a D, the only way to stay in the good graces and get the support you need to get elected / re-elected is to toe the party line.

Again, I am not ** against ** our system. But I clearly see the flaws.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Heck yeah, it has flaws. Many flaws. One of which is that people aren't required to vote.
You are right about other parties not being taken seriously but they can still conceivably win an election (I know it's a stretch) if they carried enough states.
This is dangerously close to becoming a politically charged debate so I'll back off a bit. This is something that I'm passionate about and until I hear a GOOD excuse for not doing so, there is no excuse for not voting.

[QUOTE=Pwoolson]If you don't vote, you really shouldn't have the right
to the government. [/QUOTE]

Then could I get a refund?

I'm able to discuss this with you guys because I trust your intentions.
Sometimes its hard to frame things without making them seem factious,
but I trust they're not meant that way.

Paul, I believe you've heard two very credible reasons for not voting.
Whether or not you accept them doesn't make them credible or not. I
would go into my faith-based reasons for not voting but know we
shouldn't go there out of respect for the rules. I don't believe choosing
not to vote is an opt-out.

On a local level, it's different. I'm in regular communication with my
school's counselwoman and have been part of a committee that
succeeded in creating affordable housing and improving conditions in our
worst areas.    James Orr39018.775

I know...Dave-SKG39019.8217939815

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"