I find I frequently need to re-set my neck this time of year - particularly after watching "The Exorcist"
Happy Samhain (Halloween) everyone!
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| How frequent are neck resets? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9085 |
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| Author: | TRein [ Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:40 pm ] |
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I started out building steel-string guitars back in the 70's. For the past 20 years, I have made only classicals. None of my early steel string guitars have needed neck resets, but they were probably over-built. Of course, neck resets on well-made classicals are extremely rare. I am interested in making some acoustic guitars again and am debating the various methods of neck attachment. Bolting on the neck and gluing the "tongue" of the fingerboard to the top is appealing for its simplicity and clean look. Taking the bolts out, cranking the neck forward a bit and using sandpaper to remove material on the neck sholder (as on Frank Ford's site) seems like a fairly crude way of lowering the action. You will wind up with a kink in the fingerboard at the 14th fret. Heating up the tongue to break the glue joint without damaging the top or fingerboard seems tricky and kind of negates the ease of the bolt-on neck. Taylor's and Bourgeois' methods are similar and add a bunch of wood and fasteners that aren't needed with Collings (and Ryan's?) method, but a more predictable action would be the result. All this leads up to the question posed in the title. Assuming a nicely graduated top with scalloped bracing that is not super rigid, what is your experience as to frequency of neck resets? |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:09 pm ] |
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i have seen fifty year old guitars whose necks were fine never having had a reset, and same age/brand in for the second reset, as well as brand new instruments that needed a reset due to manufacturing defect. there is no set time or use period like for timing belts on cars. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:01 pm ] |
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Tom, a typical older Martin from before they domed the tops needed its neck reset between at about 7-15 years. I'm not very active in repair anymore, but from what I hear, doming has only delayed it a little. Some need it in just a couple of years; others go about 25. If they are much older than that and it hasn't been done it's because the need hasn't been noticed, or has been dealt with in other ways (cutting down the bridge, planing the board extension, etc.) Gibsons typically go quite a bit longer--in the neighborhood of twice as long. That's probably partly from overbuilding, and partly from having had some doming built into the top starting a long time ago. Resetting a neck may sound like getting root canal, but it is a routine repair and experienced repairers don't fear it. It certainly is not worth overbuilding to avoid it. But there are some other ideas about how to avoid or delay it. These involve stiffening the upper bout, adding extensions to the neck block on both top and back (like the Spanish style foot), and running struts from the block to the sides below the waist. My website shows some of these methods, but I'm not the only one using them. |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:35 pm ] |
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I find I frequently need to re-set my neck this time of year - particularly after watching "The Exorcist"
Happy Samhain (Halloween) everyone! |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:53 am ] |
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Over the years of doing repairs, and knowing others that do this repair, I would say that with good basic care of a guitar you should not need to reset a neck but once in 50 years. Now that is all things being near perfect. Each guitar is different. The neck block, FB support upper transverse brace, the neck it's self and many other factors play into this. I tell my client that it would not be unreasonable to need a neck reset in 15- 20 year but that with good care and maintenance you may never need one in your life time. Yea I know! No real answer here. That is because there is not one. |
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| Author: | Mario [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:42 am ] |
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Like Howard, I've seen some that needed a reset in their first years, others go forever without the need. But far and away, most reasonably lightly built guitars can use one within their first 10 years. I've seen a ton of guitars that others said were fine that I would reset; not that I'm looking for repair work, but simply because I'd much rather set a guitar back to its proper and designed specs than by shaving a saddle/bridge/etc... Show me a 10/20/30/40 year old guitar that still has 3/32" of saddle and the action at .085"? Very, very few. Climates vary; if you live and work in an area with consistent RH that is near ideal, yeah, you won't see much need for many resets. But in some parts of the world, even the most carefully created instrument will move a lOT. We used to go to all sorts of lengths to lower action, never touching the neck angle, but these days, we know how to adjust that readily and safely, and with many of today's guitars being bolted, it's even safer, still. Why is it that a multi-million dollar violin can be taken apart and have its bass bar(read, bracing, read tone bar) replaced at regular intervals, why is it that every Strad, but one, has had its neck cut and lenghtened to better suit modern music, etc..., and nobody thinks twice about it. Why is it that we think that guitars should go 50-100 years, even lifetimes, without needing even the most basics of adjustments? 5 times more tension, more abuse, yet we expect them to not be touched? Time for a head shake, folks. 
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:41 am ] |
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My pal in the band has a thirty year-old twelve string guitar that just keeps on going.. I inspected it on Sunday for bridge bellying, neck angle...all pretty much perfect. It even had a neck heel HALF the width of the guitar's neckblock  ...If there are any problems, it is his reluctance to put new strings on.....
Oh, the only problem with the guitar was some serious dings to the top/side due to him running over it twice with his car...  |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:15 am ] |
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I forgot to mention that it almost always is much longer, if ever, before a second reset is needed. |
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| Author: | Mario [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:41 am ] |
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Correct, I also forgot to mention that fact. Once the wood(s) have stretched and deformed themselves and reached the happy place with where they are, the guitar remains much more stable. Wood can only move so much before it takes a solid "set", and unless the guitar experiences glue creep or another severe climate change, it should stay put. Any 30 year old 12 string that's been run over twice and still maintains its original specs is severely overbuilt. as is a Guild of any vintage. Bad examples <bg> The mindset that guitars should be maintenance-free is what the guitar has taken so long to evolve. Violin family instruments are expected to be maintained at regular intervals, with new bass bars every 50 years or sooner, new bridges about every 5 years, etc... That guitar owners believe that their instruments should last forever with no maintenance is sad, and holds the instrument back, a LOT. As builders, some of us would like to cross the line and build guitars that need to call home every few years from some work, but instead, we must build them to what is expected, and what is expected is that these delicate things we build outlast the grossly overbuilt factory guitars that are the "standard". Sad..... Put a bridge on a violin that is heavy enough to last 400 years, and you'll never convince a concert violinist to play it. The delicate little thing they sport isn't done to keep the luthier's family fed, but rather, to feed the ears of the player with joy. we need to look in that direction for inspiration, not to overbuilt 12 strings and Guilds and whatnot.... |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:01 am ] |
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Then,there are the guitars that have fully adjustable necks that only take a turn of a wrench to adjust the neck angle or orientation to the top. |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:23 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Mario] Any 30 year old 12 string that's been run over twice and still maintains its original specs is severely overbuilt. [/QUOTE] I'd be inclined to agree. |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:24 am ] |
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ooops, doubleroonie... |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:25 am ] |
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ARRRRGHGHHGH!!!
Somebody give me a smack! |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:27 am ] |
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Smack You post faster than Serge's shawdow. |
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| Author: | Dennis Leahy [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:46 am ] |
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Very interesting to hear the perspective of some of the repair guys (like "crazymanmichael") who have been at this long enough to really know (rather than pass on conjecture.) I'm with the adjustable neck crowd on this one. I have only built one guitar so far, but it has an adjustable neck (Grant Goltz style.) Now, I can't imagine building any other way. Dennis |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:54 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Sam Price] Oh, the only problem with the guitar was some serious dings to the top/side due to him running over it twice with his car... [/QUOTE]
Well, that explains it...he's reset the neck himself! Thomas...I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's a common repair procedure, of which, unfortunately, a lot of guitarists are unaware. Fingerboard extensions have been released and reglued without incident on thousands of guitars, and the whole thing should be quite expeditious with a bolt-on neck. As for that "reset hump," most folks, I think, just plane or sand it level once the neck is reinstalled. You'll have the frets out anyway from the joint to the end of the board. Mario, You're right, of course, about maintenance. Violinists expect it, guitarists don't. I think it's largely due to the guitar's position as a "folk" instrument. There are probably at lot of "fiddles" that could use some TLC, too. I also suspect that maintenance "awareness" is also affected by a player's dedication to music, regardless of the instrument. There are, no doubt, a considerable number of violins, sitting in closets and attics, that are unplayed and unplayable. Concert guitarists, many of whom have experience dealing with individual builders, may be a bit more aware of maintenance issues, but they seem to often buy a new instrument when it comes time for major repair. We've just gotta educate 'em, one guitarist at a time. |
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| Author: | TRein [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:52 am ] |
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[QUOTE=DennisLeahy] I'm with the adjustable neck crowd on this one. I have only built one guitar so far, but it has an adjustable neck (Grant Goltz style.) Dennis[/QUOTE] Would you care to elaborate on the Grant Goltz style? I did a Google on Grant Goltz and only came up with kayaks. Thanks! |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:22 pm ] |
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pray tell, why would one have the frets out from the join to the end of the board to reset a neck? and in that state, how would one plane or sand the hump level? |
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| Author: | Dennis Leahy [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:21 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=TRein] [QUOTE=DennisLeahy] I'm with the adjustable neck crowd on this one. I have only built one guitar so far, but it has an adjustable neck (Grant Goltz style.) Dennis[/QUOTE] Would you care to elaborate on the Grant Goltz style? I did a Google on Grant Goltz and only came up with kayaks. Thanks![/QUOTE] There is a series of threads on the Luthierforum, too much to copy here. This series of threads takes it from concept through a working model. Grant Goltz Adjustable Neck Threads. By the way, you're right, Grant also makes world-class kayaks and canoes (with his company, Sqeedunk Kayaks), including the authentic reproduction birchbark canoe used in this 2700 mile transcontinental expedition. Dennis |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:05 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] pray tell, why would one have the frets out from the join to the end of the board to reset a neck? and in that state, how would one plane or sand the hump level?[/QUOTE] You're right, that does sound goofey. I guess I mis-remembered different procedures I've read about. Sorry if I seemed to set myself up as an authority. As for removing the frets to the end of the board, I understand that it makes heating and removal easier, but perhaps that's done only if a refret is called for, too. What are your thoughts on smoothing the reset "hump"? |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:42 pm ] |
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It's by no means certain that resetting will leave a hump. If the upper bout transverse brace is rigid enough, the board will only take a slight downturn at the body. If those frets don't get played a lot, it won't be noticed. But commonly the board extension has pushed down the top a little, and it stays down after the reset, hence there is a downward angle where the board meets the body (which I would not call a "hump"). In that case, my preferred method is to put a tapered shim under the board extension when the neck is reset. Not coincidentally, lots of guitars are ready for a refret at the same time they are ready for a neck reset. Not coincidentally, because typically the frets are worn out around that time, and because all of this often happens when the guitar either gets a new owner, or the old owner wakes up one day and realizes that these things require an overhaul now and then. It's nice to do these jobs together, since the board can be trued after the reset. Even if the frets are not replaced, it is a rare guitar that doesn't need the frets leveled, crowned, and polished to complete the job. Saddle replacement is almost always done, too, since the old saddle will have been cut down. Often the bridge was cut down low, too, and needs replacement. It can add up, but it is just a routine overhaul. As Mario says, these things need maintenance, and it shouldn't come as a surprise. Except for that the factories don't want to scare buyers by informing them about it. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:49 am ] |
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as howard points out, much depends on the total assessment of what is needed to do to get the instrument to satisfy the client, and his budget, and this is often a function of the value of the instrument itself. for a guitar that is worth only $500-$1000, clients tend to baulk at $500++ repair bills. the more valuable the instrument the more willing they tend to be to spend the money necessary to get everything taken care of. as for heating the extension, i've never has any problems getting it to release with the frets in place, though i do agree it might be marginally quicker if they were out. however, i think this gain would be considerably less than the time lost in having to replace the frets. as the choice of method to avoid a hump: i prefer to use a fb matching wedge (some prefer to match the soundboard) since, per se, it does not require any work on the frets, including possibly having to deepen the slots if the board is planed. either presents a greater problem when dealing with bound boards; and more work means higher cost to the client. if a refret is in order, which as howard points out is often the case, then the options increase, but the wedge is still my prefered choice. |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:27 am ] |
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There is no way to predict whether or not a perticular guitar will ever need a reset. The woods are organic and unique in their abilities to resist tension and torque forces applied by the strings and each guitar....even those produced sequentially from the same woods, to the same specs and using the same methods in any shop. On top of the infiitely variable characteristics of the woods in every guitar, the environment and care that each guitar will be exposed to will vary as well. I've done hundreds of neck resets over the years that I've done repairs and have experienced just about every possible scenario. Some of the guitars were 50 years plus old and others were a year old and many were from the biggest and best of the large shops while others were built by some of the finest and most revered small and solo luthier operations. I've reset necks on guitars built by the most celebrated solo builders of today that cost as much as $15K. Had they been owned by the original purchaser, the builders would have performed to resets, but alot of the guitars had been sold or traded to their second, third or higher owners owners so they weren't warranty repairs in most cases. The necks that I've reset have been attached to their bodies in all manner of joints....dovetail, bolted and glued mortise and tenon, bolted flush fit, glued tongue, bolted tongue and all of the guitars exhibit the same tendencies as their bodies present the conditions that make the resets necessary, not their necks. As long as a neck is well built and stable and adjustability is still possible, the situation is always the same. There is no trick to getting "like new" results since much more is involved in the movement or distortion that takes place to make a reset necessary. The top is forced to submit to tension by dropping at the fingerboard tongue as the arch in the back is pulled flat and the neck is allowed to be pulled forward. There is also the lifting at the bridge as it rotates and that familar belly develops behind it and swoop or dip becomes evident in front toward the soundhole. Over building can prevent some of it and is the route that the larger shops take sometimes. Bracing is not scalloped to the extent that it could be to maximize tone and top or back plates may be left a bit thicker and heavier than may be possible....more in an effort to maintain rigidity and to avoid warranty returns and repairs than to save time. With any neck reset where the angle adjustment needed is more than only a degree, it is impossible to avoid a break in the apporach of the fingerboard at the point where it meets the body. Once the body has dostorted to allow the movement of the neck, the top surface under that part of the fingerboard has dipped and the area where the bridge is attached has risen so there is no longer a possible flat or straight path to the saddle. Unless you actually level the entire string plain along the length of the fingerboard, the break at the joint and dip of the fingerboard tongue is just going to be there after a reset to some extent in every case. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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