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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:34 am 
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I’m considering going for a parabolic bracing design for my OM (first build) in lieu of scalloped braces. My only reservation based on reading through the archive threads is the references to a less emphasized bass response with parabolic bracing relative to a scalloped brace approach. I’m certainly not aiming for a big thumping bass but would like to achieve a general balanced response for fingerstyle playing.

So, for those of you who are building parabolic OM’s, are you getting enough bottom end to compliment the upper register response in your opinion? I assume this would not be as much an issue for larger bodied shapes like SJ’s and Dreads which naturally have a greater bass response ? (I’m obviously speaking from a thin conceptual base here). Anyway, there seemed to be a bit more theorizing than practical evaluation in the archive threads so I’m looking for some advice.

Hesh - you built a parabolic OM last year didn't you?

Slowly climbing the learning curve here.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:50 am 
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Almost all of my guitars are "parabolic" braced in some way. I gave up on scalloping most braces some years ago. In fact I'm currently working on a walnut/Euro OM with parabolic braces both on the front and X-braced back. I find that it's greater attack is just what I like for modern fingerstyle playing. I usually combine it with European tops or WRC if I'm looking for a little more warmth. Almost always with Mahogany or similar B&S. I've had no problem with a lack of bass in my guitars. I do build light, with thin tall braces, a lack of bass can indicate that the braces are not tapered enough on the outer edge of the plate, what your aiming for is a graduated stiffness from the centre towards the edge

Have a look at this thread from some time ago, it may give you some ideas.

Braces

Colin

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:38 am 
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Doug, I'm fairly new at this having only built a two OMs but...they were both built with parabolic bracing. The first was quite boxy sounding and did not have much bass, and I'm quite sure the quitar was simply overbuilt in many respects. On the second I used much lighter bracing and the bass is fine. It is quite punchy and crisp with lots of separation from other notes and suits fingerstyle playing well.

I believe lots of nice OMs are built with parabolic bracing.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:20 pm 
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Thanks for the input guys. It sounds like the key to success is tall, thin braces. How much further would you skinny up your key brace dimensions for which I would assume the following to be typical dimensions -

x-braces : 1/4 x 3/4
tone bars : 1/4 x 1/2
finger braces : 1/4 x 3/8

Nice photos Hesh.

Thanks for the help guys.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:21 pm 
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so far i've only scalloped and have had such good success that i'm leary to move from it. that said, though, i've only completed 4 OM's and at the current speed of building feel like spending 6 months of hobby time to end up with a dud is a huge risk to the enthusiasm i have for my hobby.
still, i trust the experience that others bring. colin, could you share a few pictures of the bracing that you've been happy with - i'd love to see the walnut/euro!! i'm pretty sure that i'll x on my backs from here on so that would be a big bonus to see that too.
thanks,
phil


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:26 pm 
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I only like tapered braces on guitars that I'm going for a punchy bark to the
tone. And I only normally use them on small guitars. Everyone has thier
own style I suppose. Hesh's braces look quite larger than I would use on an
OM, but then again that may just be the pictures playing tricks on my tired
eyes. Don't think of the braces, as a separate bunch of spruce pieces, but
think of the top and the braces, and bridge plate as a whole. And further
more the box as a whole. The braces could be a little larger if the top was
thinner, or floppier, and vice versa.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:21 pm 
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Phil, this is the X-braced Walnut back, it's a pattern I've used a lot and like it, I do use a Spanish foot as you can see so that should count as a brace as well. I haven't got any open pics of my top bracing carved, I'll post some when the OM is done. My brace dimensions are 6mm wide on everything, X is 15mm tall, tone bars 13mm & 11mm, finger bars, 10mm & 8mm.



This is the Italian Euro top, from Luigi, absolutely stunning piece of wood, probably end up so thin you'll be able to see through it!



ColinColin S39025.4263773148

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:24 pm 
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[QUOTE=dmills] So, for those of you who are building parabolic OM’s, are you getting enough bottom end to compliment the upper register response in your opinion?[/QUOTE]

Doug,

A lot depends here on what you mean by "enough bottom end". I have my own view of "balanced" but this will be totally different from what, say a bluegrass player means by balanced. The bracing is just part of the overall guitar design and there are lots of things that come in to play for bass (as well as all the other areas) - body size, X brace angle, size and position of the soundhole, degree of curvature in the top, bracing pattern, tapering of top thickness etc, etc. And all of these interact together.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I also think that Colin is correct that building light including a very light top is key to success with parabolic bracing.
[/QUOTE]

Hesh,

I'm not sure I agree with this. Too thin or light a top can detract from mids and trebles that can't always be recovered by bracing and other design features imho. Similar principles apply to tapered/parabolic as to scalloped and other brace profiles. I think that you could make fine fingerstyle and flatpicking instruments with both sorts of bracing - you are just homing in on and refining certain things for the sound/response you are looking for when you choose different types and this will only come from experience and your own building styles.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:50 pm 
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[QUOTE=Dave White]


[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I also think that Colin is correct that building light including a very light top is key to success with parabolic bracing.
[/QUOTE]

Hesh,

I'm not sure I agree with this. Too thin or light a top can detract from mids and trebles that can't always be recovered by bracing and other design features imho. Similar principles apply to tapered/parabolic as to scalloped and other brace profiles. I think that you could make fine fingerstyle and flatpicking instruments with both sorts of bracing - you are just homing in on and refining certain things for the sound/response you are looking for when you choose different types and this will only come from experience and your own building styles.[/QUOTE]

Nor do I Dave! I generally build very light, with light thin bracing and but I tune the top in just the same way as normal, the wood will tell you how thin it wants to go. My idea of balance is where no part of the sound spectrum dominates any other, but that said I like the mids and uppers, where the melody tends to be, slightly forward. Final tuning of the top for me is when it's on the box and I work the outer edge of the top. and get tapping at the bridge area.

Colin

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:12 am 
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Of course it depends on your top thickness and strength, but 1/4 x 3/4 for the X brace of an OM is way too tall IMO. All my larger guitars have X braces at .280 x .590 (thats less than 5/8), and on 00s or smaller I go 1/4x .280 or 1/4 x .250, depending on whether the player uses lights or mediums. I also never use the peaked style of finger brace - mine are all 1/8 x 1/4 wide, flat. Its just extra mass IMO to do the peaked style.

On a light string OM (15 inch lower bout), 1/4 x 1/2 or slightly higher, say .540, would work, tapered braces out to 2mm at the lining.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:17 am 
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] [QUOTE=Colin S]   Final tuning of the top for me is when it's on the box and I work the outer edge of the top. and get tapping at the bridge area.

Colin[/QUOTE]

Colin I did not understand what you are doing for the final tuning of the top as stated above. Would you please provide more specifics reagarding your method? Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Hesh, when I have the box closed up before binding I like to tap and press the top at the bridge position and see how it feels, if I think it's too stiff then I'll sand the outside edges of the top until it feels right. Mainly on the lower bout and tending towards the bass side. I'm after a speaker cone effect.

ColinColin S39025.4291203704

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:34 am 
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Parabolas are used in many applications because they have the best strength to weight ratio. However, in guitar bracing, they must also be matched to the forces acting on them in order not to dampen the surface to which they are glued, both top and back. There is nothing magic about using parabolic braces that are too strong. And since tops, especially, have different stiffness, I feel that its braces must be fine tuned after the guitar is together to make sure there are no areas over the braces that cannot vibrate due to too much meat.

As Brownie McGhee used to sing:

"I got an order from across the street,
I delivered the goods, she said that's too much meat..."

Hesh's photos show braces that are WAY too big. In an email, he wrote that this guitar doesn't have much bass, and I can see why. He is also using what I call a skewed parabola on most of the top braces. I developed the idea of doing this in my brace shaping to deal with braces that had more force acting on one end than the other. However, this does not apply to all braces on the top, only the ones that meet this criterion.

When re-voicing a scalloped guitar, in order to make the belly braces parabolic, the low height of the center of a scalloped belly brace becomes the highest point of a parabolic brace. Depending on the depth of the scallop, shaping especially the upper belly brace parabolically would not leave much of a brace. But the center of the brace is usually not over the centerline of the top, and has grown taller by the time it is. A skewed parabola can be shaped from a scalloped brace, whose tallest point is moved over to the center of the top, leaving more strength under the bridge.

Last spring, I re-voiced a 1989 HD-28 that had been so radically scalloped at the factory that the top was close to failure. The bridge belly had some loose from the flexing/bellying. I read somewhere that the guy at Martin who did the scalloping then spent 45 seconds (!) on each top. This one showed it. I fashioned a supplemental piece of spruce to fill in the deep (and irregular) scallop in the upper belly brace, reshaped it into a skewed parabola, and saved this guitar.

However, by the time the string tension gets to the lower belly brace, it is spread out enough so that the lower brace can be fashioned into a true parabola. And being farther away from the bridge, the lower belly brace does not need to be as strong as the upper one. When building, I make them narrower, too. In fact, a skewed parabolic lower belly brace will only interfere with the top's vibrating--believe me, I've tried.

If I were re-voicing Hesh's OM, I would cut the upper belly brace down to less than half its current height, and leave it skewed. The lower belly brace could come down to about 5/16" high in the center, and I would make it a true parabola.

I have a picture on my web site of a factory Gibson top which I reshaped in 1997 before it was a guitar. Looking carefully, one can see how the belly braces are as I described above.

As to the side braces, I have found in re-voicing and building my own guitars that the upper side brace needs to be skewed, with more height towards the X brace, since the string pressure wants to push the top down in this area. But I make mine no taller than 5/16" to 3/8" by 1/4" wide.

The lower side brace, instead, is off to the side of the bridge, where the forces are in transition from pushing down to pulling up. And so, this brace does not need to be skewed, and when I built one with skewed lower side braces, I reshaped them into true parabolas, about 1/4" high, because they were dampening the B string.

I have been building guitars with parabolic X braces, and have been frustrated that I can make a scalloped guitar sound better than mine. Sometimes sticking to one's principles is limiting. I tried lowering the height of the X's cross point for more life with limited success. I have been using X braces that are 5/16" wide, and was down to under 1/2" and still not happy.

This spring, I put theory aside and started reshaping the legs of the X into a compromise with scalloped, after working on an OM whose X legs started the concave curve right at the cross point, instead of the usual start, a few inches below the cross point. However the peaks left lower down by scalloping are always dead spots, so I made just a gradual curve levelling off towards the bottom, and am closer to happy. Maybe a bit more on one of mine.

Another thing I've discovered is that the cross sectional curve of the X brace's legs needs to be continuous to the end, not squaring off as most builders shape them. These corners keep the bass from being released into the top and sides.

Moving to the photo of Hesh's back, so to speak, I would advise making the lower two braces much lower in the center. The lower bout of the back reinforces the bass end. I would make the lower two braces no taller than 3/8" in the center, given the width shown.

The upper bout reinforces the mid range. If you take the model I've developed, which says that any given note finds resonance in a ring, depending on the frequency, you can analyze whether the back braces are too big by plucking the strings, finding the rings on the back with which they resonate, and follow the rings with your finger tips over the braces. If there is no vibration over a brace, it means there is too much meat underneath. This goes for the top, too. When the strength of braces is matched to the forces acting on them at any given point, the braces no longer dampen the surface to which they are glued. Ergo, more volume. The shape must also be perfect in order for the energy to flow through them and be released where it finds resonance.

On the back's lower bout, you will find the low E ring near the outside perimeter. The A and D rings are further in towards the center. On the upper bout, you will find the D ring around the perimeter (no A and E reinforcement here, due to the smaller diameter) and the G ring inside of the D's.

Another aspect of parabolic bracing is that the shape must be absolutely perfect. Any irregulaties will prevent the brace from flowing with the energy instead of fighting it. Not to be critical of Hesh's work, which overall is very cool and carefully done, but look at the third back brace down. Notice that to the left of the center line, there is a slight hump, i.e., the tallest part of the brace is not in its center. Ditto for the very bottom back brace, but not as much. Whereas the top two braces appear to be true parabolas.

I went over all of this and much more in my workshop at the recent GAL convention in Tacoma. The folks at ASIA are not interested, but if any of you are, I can give individual workshops here in southwest New Mexico to show how to find the rings, and, tapping and feeling, reshape braces until they work. I can also re-voice a guitar via UPS, if anyone has one which is disappointing. Cost of re-voicing is $1200, but I will give the same 25% discount to builders that I give to musicians and dealers.

Overbraced parabolic guitars will not only be disappointing, they will give parabolic bracing a bad name.

Don't give up on parabolas.

Scott








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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:50 am 
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FWIW, I am starting to head this way too. However I wouldn't call what I am doing as parabolic. Mine is more of a function of the cube rule.

Imagine a bell curve. Place the center right over the x-brace joint, and rotate it on that axis. That is the strength topography I am shooting for.

This has some interesting by products. 1) No scalloping 2) No decoupling the braces at their joints (ala the finger braces and tone bars) they pretty much remain near full height at the connection. and 3) The positioning of the braces change.

And... by conventional standards the tops and braces are EXTREMELY light. However this is subjective. The top plate is first thicknessed by deflection, and then the bracing is lightened to tap tone.

I now think of the bracing much more in terms of "irrigation ditches" for the energy generated by the strings, and less as structural supports for the top. That has made a big difference. (Sure they do both, but changing my thinking has helped with the final product).

These are all ideas I picked up at Ervin Somogyi's class and I am pretty much sold on this methodology. I would not profess it is the ONLY way to build a good sounding guitar. But I have seen first hand that it works -- and works very well.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:51 am 
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Hesh, I also keep the "parabola" of the brace going right until it meets the lining, in other words no end scallop. (I think I said this in a thread some time ago). However, once its under the lining it ceases to affect the top as it is now glued to the kerfing as well, so I just rout out the kerfing with a 2mm pocket and shape the end of the brace to fit the pocket, the rest of the end of the brace, usually about another 2mm will butt up against the lining. Does that make sense? I'll post some pics when I've got the next top ready.

To make this easier for access,I don't actually glue the back on until I have got the top fitted to the sides as well.

ColinColin S39025.4948842593

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:33 am 
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Well, I have certainly heard a lot of scallop braced guitars that sound great -- So I am not absolutely dismissing that approach. However, This idea of bracing to a given topology of stiffness has helped.

By coupling the tributary braces off of the main X in a very firm way you get a lot of energy transfer. That idea seems to make sense, and it seems to work very well.

If I am reading Scott right, he seems to be truly shaping his braces to a parabola. I am not doing that. Mine are just higher toward the middle and lower on the ends. These have a gentle sweep to them, but I am not trying to aim to a precise mathmatical shape.

And purely for constructive reasons I make sure the ends of my braces are all a uniform height where they will tuck into the linings -- if for no other reason than to keep the work squeeky clean.


I can't urge you enough.... if you have the time you really should try to get out and take Ervin's class. It will add decades of wisdom, and lots of cool new ideas.

Brock Poling39025.6489699074

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:33 am 
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Hesh,

The curve on your X brace looks about right above the end scallop. Too tall and narrow seems to give a harsh quality to the sound, but I've limited experience with all possible parameters on this aspect. I've been using 5/16" wide X braces, lowered to .125" high where they go into the kerfing, and look like squat semicircles. If the brace is much more than 1/8th" tall at the end, it seems to dampen the low E, which needs to release its energy into the top towards the end, as I said earlier. Leave no interruptions in the shape the whole length of the legs. I cut the kerfing rectangular, then put a dab of sanding dust and titebond in each corner when I glue the top to the sides.    I put the back on last so that I can finish this connection smoothly.

And yes, I think the peaks that scalloping leaves create dead spots, usually dampening the A or D strings, according to my sound is round diagram on my web site. When I re-voice a scalloped guitar, the fate of these peaks depends on how deep the scallop goes. If it's deep, then the top will want to bend up between where the X legs leave the bridge, and where they meet the kerfing. I once worked on a Martin 7-28 (7/8th size D-28) that had a very long scallop, which made the peak almost to the end. The top had bowed up closer to the bridge, where the peak should have been. I just removed it, and the bulge wasn't much, anyway. However, with a deep scallop, I gradually work the peak down to a slight parabolic bump, restringing in between work. When the surface of the top over the bump vibrates, it is just right, and simultaneously, the A or D string gets louder. If the scallop is not too deep, then the bumps usually disappear before the top above them vibrates well, and the legs flow in a slight taper from the low part of the scallop to the kerfing.

Scott




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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:55 am 
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[QUOTE=Scott van Linge]Another aspect of parabolic bracing is that the
shape must be absolutely perfect. Any irregulaties will prevent the brace
from flowing with the energy instead of fighting it.[/QUOTE]

Scott, I'm in-experienced and don't mean this in a critical way
whatsoever. This seems a bit over-sensationalized. Matter is matter and
energy's going to be transfered. What leads you to the above conclusion?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:49 am 
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James,

Experience leads me to say this. During every re-voice job, I seem to end up with a quiet string or two when I think I'm finished. Or, it looks as though I should be finished, inspecting through the soundhole with a mirror. And maybe I'm just tired working on it, and hope I'm done. I pluck that string, find the ring it vibrates on the top and back, and look for a small spot in the ring that isn't vibrating. Invariably, there is one over a brace. Sometimes I can feel a slight irregularity with my fingers, sometimes only with a sanding block becauses it drags a bit over the irregularity. And every time I get the surface as perfect as possible, the quiet string comes to life.

Sometimes in lowering the height of a brace, the curve of the cross section doesn't go down close to the glue line, even though the upper surface is right, creating a slight ridge, maybe 1/16" up from the line. Such a ridge can keep the energy in the brace. This is especially true for getting the area outside of the X brace legs to vibrate, which is why wide angle X's can be louder at the expense of strength.

I know it sounds like hokum, but I still am amazed at times by what can cause trouble. For example, take a look at the 6th photo down of Hesh's top. It shows the side braces on the bass side clearly. At first glance they look good, but the lower one shows an extra bit of a hump on the high part of the skewed brace, whereas the upper one is much closer to perfect, even though it is too tall. And as I said earlier, the lower one should be a true parabola.

Then look at the 7th photo, which shows the side braces on the treble side. They both have this extra bump. Even if these braces were lower and as I describe, such an irregularity would be enough to cause the brace to dampen the surface to which it's glued, which in the case of the side braces, is in the area of the high E or B strings.

It doesn't seem like it should make a difference, but even much more subtle irregularities do, too. I can't even come up with convincing bs as to why.

Scott


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:15 am 
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colin,
thanks for the picture of the back. very helpful.
i look forward to seeing the rest of the build.
and about the rest of the discussion and all the detailed math and theory of bracing, i'm glad there's some of you out there who are interested. because for hobbiests like myself, i think most of us don't have the time.
for my first build i printed off the picture of the santa cruz om bracing that frank ford has on his web site and tried as hard as i could to copy it. put the picture beside my first braced top, held up my thumb, stuck my tongue out the side of my mouth and pinched one eye shut. it turned out great and gave me a super point of reference from which to experiment with subsequent builds.
scott, my hunch is that for a lot of us with really limited time in the workshop, a few well taken pictures might gain more converts than pages of theory. that said, though, i love the freedom and enthusiasm with which you share your expertise.
thanks,
phil


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:28 am 
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I agree with Scott that Hesh's parabolic bracing looks much too big. However, a lot depends on how thick the top is. To me, what's important is to get the bracing and the top working together; I don't particularly like guitars with thin tops and heavy/tall bracing. That's the way to make a top light, but light weight isn't the only desireable thing in a top. I find that a heavy top will often seem to demand heavier bracing as well, just to preserve the balance. Of course, if you make a light top with light bracing you could be asking for structural problems down the road, and a heavy top will tend to lack in volume, at least.

You can do a lot to 'shape' the tone by the way you start shaping your bracing. I usually use 'tapered' bracing, but have made 'straight' and even 'scalloped' braces when that was the sound I was after. The vibration modes that form the timbre of the guitar will be in different relationships depending on what your brace profiles are.

Once I've decided on a basic profile, though, I tend to ask the top and the bracing what the 'right' shape will be. I do this by looking at the shapes of the 'free' plate modes, and trying to get them to be 'right', based on my experience and guitars that I, and my customers, have liked. These things can be balanced on the head of a pin. Sometimes the brace shaping on a 200 gram top will come down to a couple of 2" long shavings from one or two braces. That's why I find it hard to be doctrinaire about brace shapes: you've got to go with what the wood wants, and wood is just too variable.   





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