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Thin Skin - Community - Respect & Value

I think it is time for us to have a bit of a reminder about why we all visit the OLF, what it offers to the community, and general civility toward others. This has been building for some time now, and a recent thread has made it necessary for Brock and I to make our views on the subject public.


The purpose of the OLF is a community where enthusiasts, builders (of all experience levels) can come and share ideas, offer advice, and find friendship with others who love the craft of building guitars. We want the community to be a place where you can come if you are stuck on a project, looking to sharpen your skills, do something new, offer support to those who are just getting started, or just to “hang out” with the purpose of furthering our love of the craft. A community in its truest respect.


To the newer builders I have these thoughts….

However, we have noticed that there seems to be a growing animosity between some of the newer builders and some of the more experienced guys. In recent days Mario has thrown up his hands and left, a few months back Rick Turner was insulted, and the latest incident involves Howard. Let me say this, that on the whole we are privileged to have the experience of members like this. These are guys who have built many many many guitars, they have learned through the school of hard knocks and from the best luthiers to live. We would be very wise to listen to them regardless if they offer support, criticism, or alternative ways of going about our work. They have chosen to come here not to advance their own skills, but to share what they know with all of us.   Clearly criticism is hard to take. It is not something any human likes to hear, but it is necessary for growth. If your purpose for participating in the OLF is to learn then there is no greater opportunity in a forum environment than to have members with decades of experience.

So if you feel like you have been slighted, made to look foolish, growled at, or any of a dozen other things that have hurt your feelings….. before you lash back --- think….   Is this advice valuable? Can I learn from it? Can I grow from it? What is the point of his comment?   Maybe you will grow from the remark even though it was unpleasant to hear.

And before you challenge the knowledge of a 30 year veteran… maybe… just maybe you should consider giving him the benefit of the doubt. He might have learned a thing or two in three decades.


To the more established builders I have these thoughts…

I am well aware that newbies (in any pursuit) make a lot of dumb, remarkably stupid, senseless, mistakes. They say dumb things, they do dumber things, and they screw up a lot (I know I sure did and still do).   That is just part of the learning process. I know of no other way to get good at something. Failures are opportunities to learn. Couple this with a near obsession to build instruments and you end up with an over enthusiastic newbie. However, rather than becoming frustrated with their “cluelessness” I would urge you to think back to your own beginnings and try to sympathize with them. So instead of saying something sarcastic when they say something stupid offer your advice in a patient way. Try to understand that nobody likes to hear harsh criticism… even though that might be exactly what the situation calls for tempering the severity of the language (but not the message) may be prudent.

While we are all happy to acknowledge your experience and expertise, I would simply ask that you “talk” to any of our members as you would your best friend. Show them the same courtesy and patience. We certainly appreciate your participation, but it is embarrassing to be made to look foolish or to be growled at in a public forum. Nobody likes that.


To the community as a whole

Not all ideas are equal. Some are good, some aren’t. It is ok to discuss ideas and endorse them, challenge them or dismiss them on their merits. This is not a reflection of what we think of their author. It is simply in an effort to continue the craft. If your idea is considered by the whole to have weaknesses or is challenged by another don’t take it personal. After all we are all here to learn and share – right?

There may be more than one way to do something “right” but that doesn’t mean that ALL ways are the right way.

BE RESPECTFUL. If you challenge something challenge the idea, not the author. Be understanding of the newbies, give the veterans the benefit of the doubt they know what they are talking about… and above all be civil to one another. Treat the members of this forum as you would your closest friends of family.   There is nothing productive that comes from inflammatory speech.

And above all else… despite our disagreements remember that we are 95% similar due to our love of guitar building. Let’s focus on that, rather than our 5% differences.

We are not soliciting your response, but rather giving our community (as a whole) some food for thought.

Thanks

Brock Poling39034.5978703704

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

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Pullman, WA

The more I know, the more I know I don't know.

trippguitars.com
OR
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Good on you mate! Very well said!

needed guidance and well stated

Well said

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Interesting thing about respect...it is still a two-way street.

I've noticed in life that people can get very caught up in resting on their laurels. When that happens, they risk falling into a trap where they start to believe their own press. Then their head becomes inflated by what they believe about themselves, and then people who know less who they aren't familiar with can get a sarcastic earful in the guise of "helping".

If you do that to someone, and get an earful back from them, don't think that you didn't deserve it just because you've payed some sort of dues in the kraft and therefore you can say whatever the heck you feel like to anyone. Sorry, nobody deserves respect if they can't give it. Lead by example...

My thoughts are that we will engender respect toward ourselves only as long as we continue to give that same respect to others regardless of their experience or what we think of them. Some time ago, I posted a thread because I became angry with a vendor. I payed a price for that in my own eyes and in the eyes of others because I didn't show that person any respect. I made both private and public apologies because I was so very wrong to do what I did. I'm not saying that to boast, but to make the point that I hope through it that I learned a lesson.

I'm hardest on those who have been around a long time because they should know better.

We've had enough things happen here lately that a number of folks have left because of what others have said publicly and privately. Civility and respect on all levels would have been enough to keep any of that from happening. But it can't be unidirectional.

We ALL must take responsibility for our own actions and make any changes there first before this will ever change.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Ohhhhhh....how refreshing!!!...and well stated.

Thanks for addressing this. It's been sad to see such great people leaving the OLF. I've learned more from the guys who have hundreds of guitars under their belts and have always appreciated their generosity and willingness to share. If I have personally offended them in any way, I am truly sorry.

So I once again implore the "Alpha Builders" to please return.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Man, I hate to see these guys go. As a noob, I'll take honest, sarcastic correction or criticism over blind encouragement any day of the week.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I seem to have missed all this controversy because I haven't been reading the Forum much lately. I find people on webrings are often like kids - I leave them alone for 5 minutes and they start squabbling.

It may be an English thing but I always find that when I disagree with someone I inevitably start out by apologising because I find myself unable to agree with them. I just can't help myself. Probably you Canadians feel the same way

You're quite right, Lance. It's never helpful to just rip into someone when they say something stupid. Equally it's just plain dumb to refuse to learn from someone else's greater experience just because you don't like the way they've expressed their opinion.

Personally I'm eternally grateful to the veteran builders who've given the benefit of their years of luthiery on this and other webrings. I don't always agree with them, but I have learned (and am still learning) huge amounts from them. If these people have left the Forum then make no mistake, that's a great loss to all of us.

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Pete
http://www.petewoodmanguitars.com

I hope that the more experienced luthiers stick round on this forum.

Every question I have asked privately and publically on this forum has been answered with patience, absolute clarity and respect.

Could this be an opportunity for me to say that this really does mean a lot to me and my learning experience?

Not only that; but the internet really begins to be a great success when ideas and discussions take place for the sake of learning, and enthusing inspiration. This forum contains both elements in abundance.

Let's hope we can get through this, and I will take personal notes in humility, as an over-enthusiastic newbie.








Sam Price39034.7112847222

Thanks Lance and Brock, being the Big kid that i am, it is very refreshing to hear your voices of wisdom on this subject.

I'm an eternal optimist and most of the time naive person engulfed in an emotional ball, i used to see veterans like Mario or Al Caruth like Icons but seeing what pressure it puts on them, i withdrew from this way of thinking and rather see them like normal human beings now, just like most of us newbs, even the most seasoned get to see illusions and false certainties that brings them back to humbleness, they sometimes learn from us newbs who think outside the box for all i know!

RESPECT, i have to agree with our Don here, it is a 2 way street and heck am i glad to still have you all as friends!

Long live the OLF!

We stated Lance and Don.

Kim

Lance,

I'm sorry that you have had bring this up again. But I applaud you for doing what is needed for the community. I really enjoy this forum and has always considered it a family atmosphere. The ability for forum members to pose questions and ideas and receive input from others has always been a big plus. The members here give freely of their time and knowledge to help others. Sometimes criticism is part of that interaction but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a negative. The free flow of ideas is what helps us learn and move forward and I do hope people will understand what you are saying. This is a great forum for learning if one takes advantage of it.


Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

Well-stated Lance!    I for one am 100% behind you on this. Just another reason why this is the only forum for me!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

But I'm so very GOOD at making stupid mistakes!

In all seriousness though, this is still the best group on the internet that
I've ever had the pleasure of participating with. I mostly just lurk/read/
absorb what I can and I'm still pretty taken back with how friendly and
supportive everyone is to each other. It's unfortunate that there is/was
any friction between people here at all.

I was a bit timid to post a while back about my "fishtone" project because
it's quite a bit off-the-wall, but I didn't know where else to turn to for
advice. I appreciate that you guys took the time to offer insight,
experience, and suggestions without the "go away / stick to tradition"
type of responses I would have gotten from other forums.

You're a great bunch!

Glad you addressed this Lance & Brock, I was starting to get a little worried.

I learnt the hard way not to personalise ideas, working in R&D it's all about ideas - some are great, some aren't so good and get shot down pretty quick. In my job I've had a few corkers and a few that were pretty woeful. But I still have the respect of my collegues (who've also had good and bad ideas) because I continue to contribute.

In this sort of endevour we all need to try to avoid wrapping our ideas with our identities. Have an idea and put it out there, if it does get shot down (respectfully) don't take it personally, it was the idea that got shot down, not you.

The danger here is that people will not continue to put forth their ideas because they're scared of what the old hands will say.

The other danger is that we'll loose the old hands. I hope Mario returns, and losing Howard would be a great loss to us all.

Treat each other with the respect that we all deserve, and don't take rejection of your ideas personally (which is a challenge in itself) and we'll all get along fine.

The veteran's contribution is sort of a one-way street. They usually do it to pass on their hard earned knowledge, which can be privately rewarding. But not everyone gives them the respect that they deserve.

After contributing for a period of time on a forum, it tends to become harder to always be encouraging, and they often get grumpy, especially when their advice is ignored or is misunderstood as a childish attack. Unless some way comes up to give them more respect, they will continue to drift on to more rewarding pursuits. That's just the way it is. It has happened to other guitar forums.

I typically have found that this group is too nice at times.
My reasoning for this is that most are afraid to give negative feedback.
When I posted picts of my new bridge prototype I wanted honest feedback.
If you liked it fine, if you don't fine. Sometimes negative feedback is the
most constructive type.

They key is to not make it personal and don't take it personally.
I was amazed that when people gave negative feedback to the design I
immediately got a PM hoping I wasn't offended and would still be their
friend!!!!!

The is still the most awesome site on the net. We are like family and
sometimes siblings bicker!!!!

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Interesting thing about respect...it is still a two-way street.

I've noticed in life that people can get very caught up in resting on their laurels. When that happens, they risk falling into a trap where they start to believe their own press. Then their head becomes inflated by what they believe about themselves, and then people who know less who they aren't familiar with can get a sarcastic earful in the guise of "helping".

If you do that to someone, and get an earful back from them, don't think that you didn't deserve it just because you've payed some sort of dues in the kraft and therefore you can say whatever the heck you feel like to anyone. Sorry, nobody deserves respect if they can't give it. Lead by example...

My thoughts are that we will engender respect toward ourselves only as long as we continue to give that same respect to others regardless of their experience or what we think of them. Some time ago, I posted a thread because I became angry with a vendor. I payed a price for that in my own eyes and in the eyes of others because I didn't show that person any respect. I made both private and public apologies because I was so very wrong to do what I did. I'm not saying that to boast, but to make the point that I hope through it that I learned a lesson.

I'm hardest on those who have been around a long time because they should know better.

We've had enough things happen here lately that a number of folks have left because of what others have said publicly and privately. Civility and respect on all levels would have been enough to keep any of that from happening. But it can't be unidirectional.

We ALL must take responsibility for our own actions and make any changes there first before this will ever change. [/QUOTE]

Hear, Hear Don! I'll respect a man's knowledge and abilities gained from his experience. But, respect as a person has to be earned. Some have failed.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I for one have not been one to hold back much when voicing an opinion. I do not believe that we have to walk on egg shells when it comes to posting our opinions, but we do have to give that opinion with respect.

Just because someone has learned things by the school of hard knocks, doesn't mean that they have the right to be a jerk about the way their opinion is written or given.

Why is it so hard for some folks to be nice or even cordial, even if giving negative feed back? This makes no sense to me. Here I am giving some negative feed back but not writing it in a poor manor (IMO) with lots of sarcasm or (sighs) of sarcasm. This just does not seem to be a productive way of correction in my book and I don't give much weight to someone who responds that way, regardless of their experience.

I understand that this post of mine may be on the harsher side of things. Like Don said, respect is a two way street and it's not given easily regardless of experience.

If I've been offensive to anyone, I don't have a problem hearing it, public or private. Please let me know, I can handle the truth (thanks Serge).

We are all adults here, and since we are, my expectation is that we all BE adults. I'm not in grade 10 anymore.

Having said all this, I'm grateful for everyone here and all that they have to bring to the table. This place has made me a better guitar builder and I have gain some good friends to boot. I hope that in some way I have helped others be better builders and have also been a friend too.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

As a newbie, I want to say that if I've offended with some of my questions, that was certainly not the intent-- let me reiterate publicly how much I value the input I've received here. Without this place, I would have made many more mistakes and not been able to recover from the ones I have made. Thanks from me to all of the members here and for all of the valuable insight and input I've received.

     Thanks guys. A reminder of forum protocol can never hurt. You both
do a great job providing a fun and valuable place for us all to visit and
share with one another.

     With each guitar that I've built, I have learned and with the next, I
refined what I'd learned from th last. I don't think anyone could ever
compile the list of "dumb" mistakes and "foolish" misdirected efforts that
I have over my building of all of my guitars so there are no questions or
comments that i'll ever view or address as "dumb" or "foolish".

    If any experienced builder does address a quetion or comment from a
less experienced builder with disdain or condescention, the rest of us
with equal or greater experience may need to drop them a PM letting
them know that they may be getting a little full of themselves...tactfully.
Just because someone who is used to playing guitars that cost $200.00 to
$500.00 dollars from production houses all over the world tells you that
you're the greatest, please, get ahold of yourself and realize where the
compliment comes from and what validation it can really offer which is
little, at least if you're trying to enter the custom guitar marketplcace.

    When players who have played the best of the best guitars being built
today....without having them given to them in exchange for an
endorsement....play one of your guitars and tell you that they like it and
what they like about it, take that as input relevant to your skill and grow
from it. There's alot or arrogance and self promotion in builders who've
built just a few guitars and can't possibly have a real understanding of
what's happening with much of what they're building from simply
because family and friends have said they're great. The best that they've
seen? Maybe, but that's as far as that goes.

     I've talked to and heard of guys who claim to be among the best in
tone and build quality only to finallt play one of their guitars to find that
it is of entry level or sophomoric achievement in quality. did I think any
less of the builder once I'd seen their work? No, but I understood that
they may not have ever seen guitars built by their competitors or even
builders that they may have claimed to build equal to in quality and tone.

    Growth comes with the numbers of guitar that you produce and it's the
same in any craft or trade. The more you do it, the better you get and the
better you get, the more selling power you'll enjoy for the long run. If
your improvement is only real in your eyes, your market will quickly dry
up.

     I love to learn and keep my eyes peeled for opportunities to do so. If
you've built only two or three guitars and have a great idea that I hadn't
thought of....I'm going to thank you for sharing it and give it a try. But, if
you've built several hundred guitars and have a bad one.....I'll try to help
you move past it and to higher ground if I'm able.... and if that's where
you're looking to go.

    We shouldn't have to develop thick skin to fight off being offended
when things aren't offered with consideration since it's actually easier to
just be kind and considerate. Avoid the temptation to make yourself feel
bigger or better by knocking someone else down a notch. Build up the
other guy....you'll feel better and look better in the end anyway.

Thanks again Lance and Brock.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I will always seek out honest criticism rather than be pandered to. I enjoy someones opinion of my work even if it hurts a little because you have to believe that they are just trying to help. It isn't worth the effort to break me down so they are just trying to help. That is the way I approach this forum and I am lucky to have found this place. It has helped me immeasurably. I am always learnig a new way to do something or how to approach a problem from different angle. Thanks to everyone for the advice that has been given and for taking time to help nameless, faceless people from wherever. No one has to help anyone else on this board but they do out of the kindness of their heart. Keep that in mind if you get mad.

Homeboy