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More French Polish questions- additives
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9313		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have heard that some are adding additives/resins to FP to make it more
durable.
Anyone have experience with this?
What do you add?
How much??
Thanks
Author:  PaulB [ Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
I used some premixed hardened shellac on my latest. It's got some melamine added as a co-polymer. Great stuff, now that it's been on the guitar for a month or so it's very very hard. The manufacturer claims it has the durability of polyurethane and I'm not going to argue with them.

I bought mine here: ubeaut hard shellac. It works well as a french polish, but is easier to just spray it on. There are a few distributors in the US and Canada.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Marshall Brune would probably be the one to answer this question. He and his father, Richard, really have a vast knowledge of all things F.P. Google there site to contact them. Marshall used to hang here on OLF but I haven't heard from him in a while.
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks
E mail sent to Marshall and Richard
Author:  j.Brown [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Make sure to post any replies, Andy!
-j.
Author:  j.Brown [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:49 am ]
Post subject: 
edited out....j.Brown39036.5356134259
Author:  j.Brown [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:11 am ]
Post subject: 
I can not find anyone in the US who carries it and it says that ubeaut can't ship it out of the country. UGH!
-j.
Author:  CarltonM [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:37 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=j.Brown] I can not find anyone in the US who carries it and it says that ubeaut can't ship it out of the country. UGH!
-j.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I suspect they can't export it because the pre-mixed stuff has a limited shelf life (Zinsser's not given' out their "secret recipe"!).
Author:  PaulB [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 
The ubeaut hard shellac does have a shelf life of about a year or two. It's a 4lb cut so 500ml should last a couple of guitars.

This was discussed here a year or so ago, check the archives. Somebody posted that they found some distributers in the US and Canada.

You might also send an email to Brian Burns, I had an email exchange with him a couple years ago where he was looking to try it, I'm sure he'd found a supplier.
Author:  Kim [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wacko,

Thanks for the link Paul, can you post or PM me an image of a finished guitar, seems just what I have been looking for.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  PaulB [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'll try to get some pics up soonish (maybe tonite), I promised Hesh some so he could see the tiger myrtle bindings under finish and I've been too busy building other stuff and wet sanding/buffing out the finish on this guitar. Seems I lost some of my spray painting skills in the twenty years since I did it for a job. .

One thing I noticed was that I did get some witness lines while wet sanding. Made for a sleepless night. Can't see them once that area is buffed tho, even under different light sources. In future I'll not let the first coat dry completly before laying down more.

You'll like this stuff Kim, best finish I've done in a long time.
Author:  Kim [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Paul,

I am excited about this because it makes sense, it removes the financial burden of setting up for safe use of nitro, and, unlike so much that we read about here, it is available here in Australia.

Looking forward to your pics .

Cheers

Kim
Author:  PaulB [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ok, here are a couple of pics. This guitar is Taz blackwood with taz tiger myrtle bindings. Incidentaly this set of blackwood only cost me about $AUS42. Dunno what that is in US dollars, but it ain't much , less than taking the family to macdonalds. Just right for guitar #2.

Appologies to my friend the Heshmiester. I promised him some pics of Taz tiger myrtle under finish, and I've been way too busy to take any. Sorry buddy that I didn't come through for you .

When I said that I'd buffed the finish, I really meant that I'd polished it with Novus plastic polish #2 (kinda like like a car polish without the silicone) that's it, wet sanded to 2000 grit then polished by hand. A buffer would give an awesome result.





Kim, another good thing about this stuff is that Neil the guy who makes it is a great bloke and is totally happy to talk to you about it. Lots of hints and tips (like they no longer recommend that you use another shellac for the first coat). He also owns the ubeaut woodwork forums, which is one of the great woodwork forums. We even see our mate Serge there

Heshtone, These bindings were about as dark as the darkest part of your back, and the colour looks about right at least on my monitor. So that's about what you can expect. It looses the redish cast and becomes more chocolate under shellac. Still nice though.PaulB39037.1921296296
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

G'day mate,
               That looks awesome Paul !

What a fantastic combo ! I'm really looking forward to seeing the complete guitar .
A great looking finish.

Cheers , Kiwi
Author:  Kim [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Paul that is one superb look'in finish, absolutely first class, and from what I can see, your no slouch in the binding department either. Well done mate.

The blackwood looks delicious and the tiger seems right at home, so much so that I know i will not be the only one baying for MORE IMAGES PLEASE .

As for Ubeaut's Hard Shellac, I am sold, this is a done deal. I will be contacting Niel in the near future so thanks very much for taking the time to post this mate. I have been going to go this way and then that but this product, having a unique cross linked shellac, seems to offer the very best of both worlds.

My only reservation remaining its use on the top. If this product is as tough as a poly, what would be the affect on the top tonally? I imagine that a rubbed FP application would be thin enough to have little or no affect, but have you done your own top with this product and if so what affect do you think it had?

Cheers

Kim
Author:  PaulB [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks guys, Kiwi has been a collaborator with this one giving me lots of good advice, and I know he's been waiting to see it for a couple months now. I've been holding off on the pics so I can do "The Great #2 Unveiling". But other people need to see some aspects of it, and I don't like to hold back info for my own selfish reasons when I owe so much.

The great thing about this stuff, at least in spraying it (and I only gave it two coats, neat straight out of the bottle 'cause the viscosity seemed about right) is that after rubbing back, the thickness is comparable to a FP finish thickness (yes I had to repair a scratch so I got to find out how thick it was which is bugger all) This guitar sounds awesome. I had it strung up and was playing it for about six weeks while I waited for the hard shellac to fully cure. It sounded a bit bit muddy for the first couple weeks. Hence my question to Al the other day about the dampening factor of guitar finishes, 'cause thats what I seemed to be hearing. Now it sounds great and I can't wait to put it back together and start playing again. And yes I did spray the top, same as everything else.

Kiwi, you gotta try this stuff. Let me know if you're interested and I'll send you a bottle.PaulB39037.2527893518
Author:  Kim [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks again Paul.

For me this product looks to be a break through as it displays exactly the properties I have been looking for in a finish.

And so it was folks that Kim the great procrastinator, had just one less thing to procrastinate about in this the craft of the endless possibility.

Cheers all

larkim39037.7011689815
Author:  PaulB [ Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've just invited the guys from Ubeaut here so that they could tell us about their US distributors. Or maybe to find a US distributor amoungst our sponsors. Up to them now.

This rotten wirelss keyboard just died, bloody thing. Makes typing difficult...
Author:  j.Brown [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:10 am ]
Post subject: 
I just got this email from Neil:
--------------------------------------------------------
Sorry j. we don't have anyone selling the hard shellac in US or Canada and because it is dangerous goods we can't send it to you from Australia.

Maybe some day someone will bite the bullet and import it but for now all I can do is say sorry.

Cheers - Neil Ellis
---------------------------------------------------

Sad news, Indeed. What can be done to rectify the situation?

-j.

Author:  jfrench [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:35 am ]
Post subject: 
If there's a true master at French Polishing it's got to be Geza Burghardt (makes a fine guitar too!).

Shawn has posted about Geza Burghardt's recipe, which includes mastic, sandarac and bension gums. I'm going to try this recipe soon, and I'll post results. The thread with the recipe is here

Another thread of interest can be found here
Author:  PaulB [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:44 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=j.Brown] I just got this email from Neil:
--------------------------------------------------------
Sorry j. we don't have anyone selling the hard shellac in US or Canada and because it is dangerous goods we can't send it to you from Australia.

Maybe some day someone will bite the bullet and import it but for now all I can do is say sorry.

Cheers - Neil Ellis
---------------------------------------------------

Sad news, Indeed. What can be done to rectify the situation?

-j.

[/QUOTE]


Sounds like an opportunity for one of our sponsors to me.
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:31 am ]
Post subject: 

I used U-Beaut and another hardened shellac by Mr. Shines ,( here in Sydney) , on my guitar.
The Mr. Shines stuff took forever to harden, but had a better run with the U-Beaut product.
Kim, I too, used it on the soundboard, and it worked very well . It has the benefit of a shellac finish without the problems associated with it, i.e. will handle sweat, alchohol and also a few light bumps. It IS the best of both worlds.

Paul, The finish you have attained there is truly SUPERB ! From what we can see so far, your new one is a magnificent instrument .
Did I hear you offer to finish my new one?

Kiwi
Author:  Kim [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the confirmation Kiwi.

This is why the OLF is such a great resource centre. When you read positive feedback about a product or supplier from other members, you can feel confident that no one is pulling your leg.

For me, I think that this thread has been a real bonus Thanks very much to Andy for starting this topic and thanks again to Paul and Kiwi for bringing this product to my attention.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
I should have read this sooner!

Thanks Paul for this link, i'll probably consider going that route now that i have heard of this product, i wonder if one could use the pre-mixed shellac from Lee Valley as a first coat before applying the hardened shellac, anyone care to comment please?

Oh and Paul, your guitar is STUNNING!

Serge
Author:  PaulB [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the compliments. I'll post more pics in my own thread as soon as I get it finished. Sorry for the hijack Andy

Serge they are now saying that they need to change the website and the label on the bottle so that it doesn't say to use regular shellac as a first coat. They are concerned that there might be different degrees of shrinkage between the two which might lead to problems. Neil says this is unlikely, but I guess he wants to cover all the bases. The reason for saying it in the first place was because he thought it might make for easier removal if the finish was damaged.

Unfortunatly, there is no distributor of this stuff in North America at the moment. But you never know, one of our sponsors might pick it up and run with it.

Kiwi, I'm happy to finish your guitar for you, you'll just have to leave it with me for, oh I don't know, a couple of years maybe. Purely for curing purposes you understand .
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