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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:49 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
In another intonation thread I mentioned my use of calculators for quick
figuring of compensation, and after some inquiries thought it may be
worth it's own topic. My calculator is such an everyday tool it my shop
that I may take it for granted that many don't realize how much time and
headache some simple button pushing can save you.

In the intonation example specifically, this is a brief summary of my
procedure. For routing a saddle slot for a typical scale length I don't
usually go too wild for specific intonation. I use a piece of 1/8" brazing
rod as a dummy saddle. It is slightly flattened on the bottom and bent to
match the radius of the bridge to set the initial line. At this point I
generally nudge it around to set the high E slightly flat and the low E
slightly sharp (The brazing rod is of course round on top, so the string's
end is at the center – on actual saddles the high E will normally be
shaped forward and the low E set back). In doing this I know that I can
shape the saddle to bring the high E forward while making sure that I will
have enough room to move the B back to where it needs to be. The same
idea for the bass side, as the low E typically needs to be further back than
a straight line from the G, D, and A would point to. This typically gives a
line at roughly .075" back at the high E and .125" at the low E when
measured from the actual scale length. If I were building guitars using the
same scale length, fret board, etc., I would just be using a template to set
the line.

For fine tuning the saddle after the slot is cut I keep some bone dummy
saddles around, with the peak beveled to the front (all the strings will be
a little sharp) and shim it to the correct height. Of course all this is done
after the nut height and truss rod adjustment are good. Then I use my
Peterson VSAM to check how far out each string is. Tune the open string
or octave harmonic, then as you play the fretted 12th you can dial in the
tuner until it is stable. That will tell you how many cents sharp that note
is. Jot it down, and check the others and it goes quite quickly.

To figure out how much compensation you need, all you need is a
calculator that can figure specific roots and powers. I use the TI 35XII,
because it's under $20 and does everything I need. You don't need a
$100 fancy graphing calculator for any of this. The numbers that I keep
stored in my memory are the 12th root of 2, the 1200th root of 2, and
(12th root of 2) / ((12 root of 2) -1). This last one is the 17.81715....
that’s where the actual number used for the "rule of eighteen" comes
from, and is actually the one I use least. The 1200th root of 2 is the one
used for calculating cents.

So now let’s say you have a 25.34” scale guitar, and the E reads 3 cents
sharp fretted at the 12th. Raise the 1200th root of 2 to the 3rd power and
multiply that by 1/2 the scale length – 12.67 in this case. Then subtract
that 12.67 from the answer, and there you have how far back from the
front edge of the saddle it needs to be compensated. 3 cents would come
out to just under .022”. Perhaps the B reads 11 cents sharp. 1200th root
of two, to the 11th power, multiplied by 12.67, minus 12.67 comes out to
just under .081” set back from the front of the saddle. It may sound
complicated at first, but I in practice it probably takes me as much time to
lay out compensation for all the strings as it’s taken you to read this
posting. If you didn’t want to deal with the calculator at all you could even
make a quick chart to keep handy for compensation needed per cent. I
think it pays to become fluent with your calculator though.

I’m sure some may have noticed a flaw in my numbers above. Rather use
half the scale length for my calculations it would be correct to use the
actual measurement. Since the saddle slot is already set back at an angle I
should be using 12.745 for the high E down to 12.795 at the low E. I
usually do add a rounded .1” to the half scale length for my calculations,
but it really isn’t enough to make a difference in the real world results.
For example the difference between calculating 6 cents compensation
using ? scale length vs. the actual measurement of .1” greater would be a
whopping .000347”. If you can control your file well enough to reach
those tolerances then great for you, but for the rest of us it won’t really
matter. I didn’t throw it in to the formula above because it could probably
be seen as intimidating enough already for many.



Like I said before though, it’s really quite simple. My personal methods
for adjusting intonation vary in little details from what I described above
in method and philosophy I guess, but that’s another topic all together
and the math is all the same. You can also use this for figuring out nut
compensation just as quickly if you juggle the numbers around a little.
The same idea covers fret placement or compensating frets if you prefer
to do that. There are certainly other methods that work quicker or better
for others as well. Some prefer tools, some numbers, and some just
trained listening or even intuition. I myself like to keep a healthy mix of
all of the above. David Collins39053.8277662037

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:14 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:50 am
Posts: 3152
Location: Canada
Thanks David!

I appreciate you taking the time to explain and I will be adding this to my note book!

Shane

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:57 pm 
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Contributing Member
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Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2951
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Thank you David, that is really good stuff!!!

I'll have study it a little to get a firm grip of it but it doesn't look to difficult thanks to your great explaination!!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:53 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:41 pm
Posts: 318
Location: Trois-Rivieres
First name: Alain
Last Name: Lambert
City: Trois-Rivieres
State: Quebec
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Here is a small spreadsheet to calculate what David has explained.
Thanks much David


Oops where did the file go?

2006-12-02_215519_Intonation_Calculator.xls

Ok second tryAlain Lambert39053.9136458333


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:37 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
Alain, that's great! I wish I was more fluent with even programs so basic as
Excel. I'll definitely save that one for the shop computer (whenever I actually
get one over there ).

Thanks

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:27 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
Posts: 7774
Location: Canada
Thanks to David and Alain, great thread, info saved to file!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:36 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:51 am
Posts: 2148
Location: San Diego, CA
First name: Andy
Last Name: Zimmerman
City: San Diego
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92103
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Alain
Thanks for the Excel file.
Are the results in mm or inches.
Also I tried to change the scale length but it wouldn't work
Any suggestions.

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:45 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:51 am
Posts: 2148
Location: San Diego, CA
First name: Andy
Last Name: Zimmerman
City: San Diego
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92103
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Alain
I saved the file and then worked with a new version and it allowed me to
change the scale length. Thanks
This is awesome. I will use it forever!!!!!!
Andy

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http://www.lazydogguitars.com


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:37 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:41 pm
Posts: 318
Location: Trois-Rivieres
First name: Alain
Last Name: Lambert
City: Trois-Rivieres
State: Quebec
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
The scale length can be changed in the yellow cell. It is just then repeating for the six strings.
I would think this would work in any system (mm or inches). Right David?

If you put the scale in mm the result will be mm. if you input the scale in inches then it would be decimal inches.
I have protected the sheet so that formula are not erased by accident. However there is no password and you can unprotect in Tools, Protection, Unprotect the worksheet.



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